Theos-Talk Archives (April 2009 Message tt00275)

Why not Emotional?

I find, that one of the great similarities between for instance Prem Rawat followers, Krishnamurti World Teacher followers, David Koresh followers, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada followers (Hare Krishna) followers was and still is of an emotional nature.

Not adding a teaching about the difference between indoctrination, propaganda and brainwashing for the Seekers to undertstand is perhaps not so healthy.

Two reasons: Comparative studying are and was kept down. And / or belief in the Leader as being the Truth incarnate was promoted. 


Try this one - "Mind Control Cults":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E
(I am not all that pro Youtube, but I find this to be a good example.)

Devotional "Love-bombing" is sometimes so efficient, that one doesn't know, that one have become a victim of it. :-)


However, these are just my views, and I am not seeking to promote any blind or assumed belief of any Avatar in the Flesh.



M. Sufilight


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Govert Schuller 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 5:14 PM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Who Do You Read? What Do You Believe?





  Dear Morten,

  You say that AB and CWL were "effectively creating an EMOTIONAL cult" with the OSE. 

  I'd like to see that rephrased to DEVOTIONAL cult, the seeds for which were sown by HPB herself by announcing in KTH:

  "If the present attempt, in the form of our Society, succeeds better than its predecessors have done, then it will be in existence as an organized, living and healthy body when the time comes for the effort of the XXth century. The general condition of men's minds and hearts will have been improved and purified by the spread of its teachings, and, as I have said, their prejudices and dogmatic illusions will have been, to some extent at least, removed. Not only so, but besides a large and accessible literature ready to men's hands, the next impulse will find a numerous and united body of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will find the minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for him in which to clothe the new truths he brings, an organization awaiting his arrival, which will remove the merely mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from his path. Think how much one, to whom such an opportunity is given, could accomplish. Measure it by comparison with what the Theosophical Society actually has achieved in the last fourteen years, with out any of these advantages and surrounded by hosts of hindrances which would not hamper the new leader. Consider all this, and then tell me whether I am too sanguine when I say that if the Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its mission, to its original impulses through the next hundred years--tell me, I say, if I go too far in asserting that earth will be a heaven in the twenty-first century in comparison with what it is now!"

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Morten Nymann Olesen 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:40 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Who Do You Read? What Do You Believe?

  Dear friends and Anand

  My views are:

  If I may?
  I find that HPB said something like: We seek Quality Seekers and not a great amount of emotional Seekers. Such Seekers are to be found in the numerous emotional sects most of them given non-theosophical names. Yet elementary books was also sought to be produced. And some of them was in fact written by W. Q. Judge, Tookaram Tatya or Turkaram Tatya, Mabel Collins and others. 

  I find that, it is NOT an objective and correct conclusion, to say that Besant and CWL were the best of the later TS writers just becuase their books sold the most. We know, that contain errors. In fact grave errors!

  I find, that The TS Masters of Wisdom will and would never promote - the anticipation of - an official physical World Avatar in the FLESH, like Besant and CWL did, and thereby effectively creating an EMOTIONAL cult - instead of an honest Search after the Truth. The Tree is however always known on its fruits.

  I find the book "The Key to Theosophy" by HPB to be understood only by very few seekers, whose primary study is Besant and CWL books. It is said that Annie Besant followed Pandit Gopinath views in Benares.....See the following......

  "The Secret Doctrine, Krishnamurti, and Transformation" by Aryel Sanat
  "Pandit Jagannath Upadyaya of Varanasi, who had found a copy of the original text of the Kala Chakra Tantra, and who was undertaking research into it, told Krishnaji that Pandit Gopinath Kaviraj maintained that the Theosophical Society drew much of its hidden teaching from this secret doctrine. He went on to say that Swami Vishudhanand and Gopinath Kaviraj, in the early years of the twentieth century, had spoken to Mrs. Besant of the imminent coming of the Maitreya Bodhisattva and his manifestation in a human body; according to the swami, the body chosen was that of Krishnamurti. 2" ( 2 Jayakar, Krishnamurti, op. cit., pp. 30-31. )
  http://www.teosofia.com/book9.html

  More info on the above quote and words?

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anand 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 10:59 PM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Who Do You Read? What Do You Believe?

  Daniel is assuming that HPB was a successful reformer in spiritual field. This claim needs to be examined. When HPB was alive, she was neither popular in the East, nor in the West. After her death writings of Annie Besant and C.W. Leadbeater became popular. These two later writers brought glory to Theosophy. As HPB was founder of TS, she got glorified. But a researcher should see what HPB could do on her own independent strength. As I said earlier, HPB's theosophy was not much popular in the East and the West when she was alive. 
  Best
  Anand Gholap

  --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
  >
  > Daniel asked: "Where do you start?" [in figuring out all the post-HPB claims of contact with the same Masters she claimed to have worked with]
  > 
  > Maybe, and this is tentatively, by combining the following ideas:
  > 
  > 1) HPB is not infallible, therefore any pronouncements about later messengers might not be necessarily true.
  > 
  > 2) As per HPB, there might have been a messenger active during the 1975-2000 period (of course this claim of HPB might also not be true as per 1). This should give a certain motivation to engage in some detective work.
  > 
  > 3) Initiates, adpets, messengers, avatars have come and gone throughout history. HPB is unique, but one has to be careful not to make her into the first and last pope of theosophy. 
  > 
  > 4) HPB's writings might have fulfilled a certain role in her own time, but it is possible that the Masters came to the conclusion that other ways of bringing Theosophy to the public should be attempted. Anrias makes a case for that idea, saying that the life-style of the average man in the West was not conducive to get the intended transformative effect of studying the SD. consequently a more ritualistic track had to be persued.
  > 
  > 5) HPB's prophecied "torch bearer of truth" indicates that the Masters had some more plans up their sleeves than just leaving mankind with HPB's writings. The World Teacher project with Krishnamurti in relation to HPB's writings can be interpreted such that the Masters indeed moved on and even had a role for CWL and AB. 
  > 
  > 6) As HPB and the TS were a project of M and KH for which they asked permission from their superiors, there is no a priori reason to exclude the possibility that another Master might have asked for something similar. For example, it is the founding story of the Ascended Master groups that Saint Germain asked for such permission and reveived it. 
  > 
  > 7) There might be situations where the Masters will have to activate some initiates into the public forum for a specific purpose. For example Scott and Anrias to counteract the devastating effects of the failure of the WT project.
  > 
  > 8) It is not impossible to develop HPB-independent criteria by which all post-HPB claims can be measured with. With this I mean that we do not have to take HPB as the measuring rod, but should carefully create our own and some of which can be legitimately derived from HPB. 
  > 
  > Any of these ideas just mentioned might be shot down by adhering to a dogmatic interpretation of HPB, which is fine as long as she fulfills your criteria for truth, or you chose to make a leap of faith, or made any other choice that put you into such position. With all respect, I'm not there. For me the linch-pin of the whole issue is the genuine but failed WT project and it is from there that I reason back into its past build-up with HPB and the TS and reason into its future consequences with Scott, Anrias, Ballard and Prophet. 
  > 
  > Govert
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: danielhcaldwell 
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:43 PM
  > Subject: Theos-World Who Do You Read? What Do You Believe?
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Dr. Gordon Melton, an expert on modern cults and minority religions, has written: 
  > 
  > "A number of individuals have claimed contact with one of the Masters FIRST described by Blavatsky and [some] have begun new organizations based upon the individual revelation imparted." caps added.
  > 
  > Below is a PARTIAL list of the claimants: 
  > 
  > (1) In the 1890s, William Q. Judge said he was in contact with HPB's Master Morya as well as the deceased HPB. Judge claimed he precipitated letters from Master M. and gave out further esoteric teachings. 
  > 
  > (2) Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeater affirmed that they were in direct communication with HPB's Masters and the deceased HPB. They gave out various Theosophical teachings in their voluminous writings.
  > 
  > (3) Katherine Tingley, the occult successor of Judge, said she was in contact with HPB's Masters and claimed to have met on at least two occasions the Master Morya in his physical body.
  > 
  > (4) G. de Purucker, Tingley's successor, testified that the Masters M. & K.H. came to visit him in 1929 at Theosophical Society headquarters, Point Loma, San Diego, California. Purucker claimed that he was allowed to give out deeper esoteric teachings than HPB, Judge or Tingley had given.
  > 
  > (5) Alice Bailey said she was in contact with Masters K.H. and D.K and wrote more than 20 volumes of teachings said to be from D.K. She even gave out further installments of the Stanzas of Dzyan.
  > 
  > (6) Mrs. Francia A. La Due (of the Temple of the People) gave out messages from the Masters, especially from Hilarion. She also published more Stanzas from the Book of Dzyan.
  > 
  > (7) Guy Ballard (of the "I Am" Movement) claimed to be in communication with the Masters, especially St. Germain.
  > 
  > (8) Helena Roerich (of the Agni Yoga Society) published some 13 volumes of communications supposedly from the Master Morya.
  > 
  > (9) Mark Prophet and his wife Elizabeth Clare (of the Church Universal and Triumphant) claimed to be the emissaries of the Great White Brotherhood and have channeled thousands of messages from El Morya, Kut Humi, the Virgin Mary, Hercules, Chastity and a variety of other Masters and entities.
  > 
  > (10) Earlyne Chaney of Astara believed she was in communication with Kut-Hi-Mi and Zoser and other Masters of the Great White Brotherhood. She has given out various so-called esoteric and occult teachings.
  > 
  > (11) Nada-Yolanda of Mark-Age, Inc has channeled numerous messages from M., K.H., and others Masters associated with UFOs.
  > 
  > (12) Max Heindel, Rudolf Steiner and Geoffrey Hodson have claimed clairvoyant powers and to be in contact with various Masters - Rosicrucian, Theosophical or otherwise.
  > 
  > (13) Other supposed communications from HPB's Masters have come from Brother Philip in his book titled Secret of the Andes, from Cyril Scott in his series of books starting with The Initiate, and from David Anrias in his book Through the Eyes of the Masters.
  > 
  > And the list goes on . . . . 
  > 
  > So who do you believe? Which books by any of these individuals do you read?
  > 
  > Where do you start? 
  > 
  > Hundreds of books and articles have been written by all these above-named individuals.
  > 
  > For more related information and a suggested course of study, see:
  > 
  > http://blavatskyarchives.com/theosophicaltraditions.htm
  > 
  > Daniel
  > http://hpb.cc
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
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  >

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