Re: Theos-World 2012 ?
Dec 20, 2008 07:54 PM
by Augoeides-222
Morten,
Thanks for your post and commentary's.
>>>What is not important to you, is indeed very important to the TRUTH.
Because the Vatican is infected with Dugpas and Sorcerers and other kinds of
villains.<<<
Your compulsive - obsessive on the topic of Christianity and specifically the Vatican and Pope. I am not and you can't make me lol! One can say the same pointing the accusative finger at will hoping to enlist as many others as possible to validate their own preoccupations. It is a "spin bin" from my POV. You see I don't have a need to overthrow others, my time is spent in attempts to widen understanding , knowledge, and the happiness of others. What small help I can offer is a thousand times more rewarding to me than destroying the Vatican and the Catholic Church which appears to be your main interest in life. Solve et Coagula, the world is in transformation, at least some parts of it are. The Europeans have their heads on straight the Vatican is a Real Nation State, a unique status not shared by other Christian denominations. So it isn't just the request of a Pope, the times have changed where formerly it was a religious request when the Vatican wasn't yet a State/Nation. If Ira
n asked the USA to change it's Constitution how far do you think it would go?
>>>John, do you think the Mahatma Letters 90 is a hoax?<<<
Without reading Letter 90 I will say I have always considered it anomalous, strange, weird, unaccounted for that A.P. Sinnett somehow allegedly received all those letters when at the same time the Mahatma's insist that HPB is their sole Agent and channel of transmittals. I personally do not generate a lot of affection in regard to Sinnett. I dislike Barristers. They seems to have been the primary movers in the background around Madame Blavatsky. I haven't seen anyone publish an analysis of early Theosophy from this POV but I think it would find fertile ground.What do you mean in particular when you say "Hoax"? What part of Letter 90?
Years ago when I was researching I did read about Maitland, HPB's views on Maitlands considerations about ho He was seeing as well as Stainton Moses. I spent considerable money on piurchasing all of SM's works from rare book dealers and read them and to tell you the truth they read like a wild ramblings of the mad. Chaotic, confused, and largely nonsense in the case of S.M. in the end I considered that I has wasted a significant amount of money to read first hand the ravings of S.M.
Madame Blavatsky was stridently unimpressed by Maitlands visions which emulate the interior quanta of the ring of necessity for some other determinism of authority to come to rule ones self. It is the most undesired event that can befall anyone in my personal view.
In another post I indicated the true Nazarean was Mandaean. It was the High Priest of the Mandaean that was called "Nazarean" as high Title. I seem to recall that at the time of the historical Jesus the town of Nazareth did not yet exist, I could be remembering wrong but if I remember right then Nazareth was one of the lost sisters if Israel along with the Ebionites. John the Baptist was then the Elder of the Mandaeans of the Shat Al Arab and as such, a Nazarean. If you read the original Baptism Rite of the Mandaeans you will be very surprised to realize what juxtaposition between Jesus and John is related in the polemical declarations. It is very bizarre. The President of the Sanhedrin carried the Title of "Nazi". Anybody know what the root "Naz" indicates?
Flavius Josephus in his "Antiquities of the Jewish People" names no less than 16 other persons named Jesus known to him of which none is the biblical Jesus and none is Joshua ben Pandira so there is record of that Roman General who was a Jew at a time close to the biblical time of the Jesus of the bible. It is not true that no other persons named Jesus were known. There were.
>>>Why are there no real historical evidence about the claimed Gospel Jesus at
the time of Pilate?<<<
I quite agree with the question. It is known the Romans were obsessed with record keeping and made intensive demands upon tribute states that they maintain stringent authentic records of all possible character. And I stated previously that there are no records to be found in the case of the biblical Jesus. But I still don't trust the Jewish records of various resources that both Mead, HPB and others rely on, I have some feeling that across time identity's and names have become conmingled and also that the "Nazarean" title returns to the Mandaean where you find the Real Baptist John or Yaya whom Salome demanded the head of on a platter. The Mandaeans have to this day "The Book Of Yaya (John)" Lady Drower spent about 20 years among the Mandaeans as well as the Yezidee.
At any rate today I can'r devote any more time on this post.
Regards,
John
------------ Original message --------------
From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
Dear friends and John
My views are:
What is not important to you, is indeed very important to the TRUTH.
Because the Vatican is infected with Dugpas and Sorcerers and other kinds of
villains.
John said: "She did mention the Joshua ben Pandira if I recall correctly.
But I also seem to recall she did not validate it as truth."
You are in error as far as I am concerned. Try to read the quotes in the
below. But I can only prove it in the Akasha and not by useless scholary
excersises.
1.
May I ask...
John, do you think the Mahatma Letters 90 is a hoax?
"So is Jesus and John the Baptist to Edward Maitland; as true and as honest
and sincere as S.M.; though neither knew the other John the Baptist having
never heard of Jesus who is a spiritual abstraction and no living man of
that epoch. "
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-90.htm
2.
Remember, that H. P. Blavatsky in the below letter refers to it as an OFTEN
demonstrated fact that the Jesus character was born about 120 BC. How you
will twist that into something else is your choice... I agree with Blavatsky
and Master KH:
"The legend of which I speak is founded, as I have demonstrated over and
over again in my writings and my notes, on the existence of a personage
called Jehoshua (from which Jesus has been made) born at Lüd or Lydda about
120 years before the modern era. And if this fact is denied-to which I can
hardly object-one must resign oneself to regard the hero of the drama of
Calvary as a myth pure and simple. As a matter of fact, in spite of all the
desperate research made during long centuries, if we set aside the testimony
of the "Evangelists," i.e., unknown men whose identity has never been
established, and that of the Fathers of the Church, interested fanatics,
neither history, nor profane tradition, neither official documents, nor the
contemporaries of the soi-disant drama, are able to provide one single
serious proof of the historical and real existence, not only of the Man-God
but even of him called Jesus of Nazareth, from the year 1 to the year 33.
All is darkness and silence."
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v9/y1888_033.htm
3.
H.P. Blavatsky also says:
"I say the scholars are either lying or talking nonsense. Our Masters affirm
the statement. If the story of Jehoshua or Jesus Ben-Pandira is false, then
the whole Talmud, the whole Jewish Canon is false. He was the disciple of
Jehoshua Ben Perahiah, the fifth President of the Sanhedrin after Ezra who
re-wrote the Bible. Compromised in the revolt of the Pharisees against
Jannaeus in 105 B.C., he fled into Egypt carrying the young Jesus with him.
This account is far truer than that of the New Testament which has no record
in history."
"[Reference is here made to the tradition preserved in the Gemara of the
Babylonian Talmud, namely in the treatises known as Sotah (chap. ix, 47a)
and Sanhedrin (chap. xi, 107b). Consult in this connection H. P. B.'s
article, "A Word with the Theosophists" (The Theosophist, Vol. IV, March
1883, pp. 143-145; re-published in Vol. IV, of the present Series); a
footnote embodied in the 2nd installment of her essay, "The Esoteric
Character of the"
.......
"Gospels"; and the valuable work of G. R. S. Mead, Did Jesus Live 100 B.C.?
(London and Benares: Theos. Publ. Society, 1903), who has surveyed all
available exoteric evidence on this subject.
The recent discovery of certain "Scrolls" in a cave around the Dead Sea go a
long way towards confirming the tradition contained in the Talmud.
Mention should be made here of the fact that H. P. B.'s original French
sentence is somewhat ambiguous; a literal translation of it makes it appear
equally ambiguous in English. Therefore, to eliminate any possibility of
confusion, it should be pointed out that it was Jehoshua (or Joshua) Ben
Perahiah who was compromised in the revolt against Jannaeus, and fled to
Egypt with the young Jehoshua Ben Pandira.
Gerald Massey, in a letter to the Medium and Daybreak, a London weekly,
gives an account of his historical researches on this important subject,
from which the following paragraphs are quoted in The Theosophist, Vol. V,
Suppl. to June, 1884, pp. 84-85:
"The Christian cult did not commence with our Canonical Gospels, nor with a
personal founder supposed to be therein portrayed.
"The Jehoshua of the Talmud was undoubtedly an historical character.
According to a tradition preserved in the Toledoth Jehoshua, he was related
to Queen Salome, the wife and later widow of King Jannaeus, who reigned from
the year 106 to 79 B.C. She is said to have tried to protect Jehoshua from
his sacerdotal enemies, because she had been a witness of his wonderful
works. One Jewish account asserts that this man, who is not to be named, was
a disciple of Jehoshua ben-Perachia. It also says he was born in the fourth
year of the reign of Alexander Jannaeus, notwithstanding the assertions of
his followers that he was born in the reign of Herod. That is about a
century earlier than the Christian era, which is supposed to have been dated
from the birth of Christ. Jehoshua is described as being the son of Pandira
and of Stada, the Strayed One.
"The Rabbi ben-Perachia is likewise an historical character. He had begun to
teach in the year 154 B.C.; therefore he was not born later than 180 to 170
B.C. But it is also related that this Rabbi fled into Egypt during the Civil
War in which the Pharisees"
.......
"revolted against King Alexander Jannaeus. This was about the year 105 B.C.;
and as Jehoshua ben-Pandira accompanied the Rabbi as his pupil, he may have
been born as early as 120 B.C. We learn from Tract Shabbath, of the
Babylonian Gemara to the Mishna, that Jehoshua ben-Pandira was stoned to
death as a wizard in the city of Lud or Lydda, and was afterwards crucified
by being hung upon the tree on the eve of the Passover. Another tradition
records that Jehoshua was put to death during the reign of Salome, which
ended in the year 71 B.C.
"Jehoshua is the sole historical Jesus known either to the Jews or the
Christians. For, Epiphanius in the fourth century actually traces the
pedigree of his Jesus the Christ to Pandira, who was the father of that
Jehoshua who lived and died at least a century too soon to be the Christ of
our Canonical Gospels. This shifts the historic basis altogether; it
antedates the human history by a century and destroys the historic character
of the Gospels, together with that of any other Jesus than Jehoshua
ben-Pandira whom both Jews and Christians agree to identify as the sole
human personality. The traditions further show that Jehoshua was a Nazarene
in reality, and not because he was born at Nazareth, which never could have
constituted any one a Nazarene!
"Now the Book Abodazura contains a comment on the Apostle James, in which it
describes him as 'a follower of Jehoshua the Nazarene,' whom I have shown to
be that 'other Jesus,' who was not the Jesus or Christ of Paul. Here then
opens the great rift between an historical Jehoshua, the magician, preacher,
and the mythological Jesus of the Canonical Gospels; a rift that has never
been bottomed, and over which I have attempted to throw a bridge."
Consult the Bio-Bibliographical Index, s.v. JOSHUA BEN PERAHIAH.-Compiler.]
"
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v8/y1887_048.htm
4.
Mahatma Letter 30 - by KH
"The chela is at perfect liberty, and often quite justified from the
standpoint of appearances -- to suspect his Guru of being "a fraud" as the
elegant word stands. More than that: the greater, the sincerer his
indignation -- whether expressed in words or boiling in his heart -- the
more fit he is, the better qualified to become an adept. He is free to, and
will not be held to account for using the most abusive words and expressions
regarding his guru's actions and orders, provided he comes out victorious
from the fiery ordeal; provided he resists all and every temptation; rejects
every allurement, and proves that nothing, not even the promise of that
which he holds dearer than life, of that most precious boon, his future
adeptship -- is unable to make him deviate from the path of truth and
honesty, or force him to become a deceiver. My dear Sir, we will hardly ever
agree in our ideas of things, and even of the value of words. You have once
upon a time called us Jesuits; and, viewing things as you do, perhaps, you
were right to a certain extent in so regarding us, since apparently our
systems of training do not differ much. But it is only externally. As I once
said before, they know that what they teach is a lie; and we know that what
we impart is truth, the only truth and nothing but the truth. They work for
the greater power and glory (!) of their order; we -- for the power and
final glory of individuals, of isolated units, of humanity in general, and
we are content, nay forced -- to leave our Order and its chiefs entirely in
the shade. They work, and toil, and deceive, for the sake of worldly power
in this life; we work and toil, and allow our chelas to be temporarily
deceived, to afford them means never to be deceived hereafter, and to see
the whole evil of falsity and untruth, not alone in this but in many of
their after lives. They -- the Jesuits sacrifice the inner principle, the
Spiritual brain of the ego, to feed and develop the better the physical
brain of the personal evanescent man, sacrificing the whole humanity to
offer it as a holocaust to their Society -- the insatiable monster feeding
on the brain and marrow of humanity, and developing an incurable cancer on
every spot of healthy flesh it touches. We -- the criticized and
misunderstood Brothers -- we seek to bring men to sacrifice their
personality -- a passing flash -- for the welfare of the whole humanity,
hence for their own immortal Egos, a part of the latter, as humanity is a
fraction of the integral whole, that it will one day become. They are
trained to deceive; we -- to undeceive; they do the scavenger's work
themselves -- barring a few poor sincere tools of theirs -- con amore, and
for selfish ends; we -- leave it to our menials -- the dugpas at our
service, by giving them carte blanche for the time being, and with the sole
object of drawing out the whole inner nature of the chela, most of the nooks
and corners of which, would remain dark and concealed for ever, were not an
opportunity afforded to test each of these corners in turn. Whether the
chela wins or loses the prize -- depends solely of himself. Only, you have
to remember that our Eastern ideas about "motives" and "truthfulness" and
"honesty" differ considerably from your ideas in the West. "
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-30.htm
So there are here no shortcuts and no bridges to be build but the TRUTH and
the rock to build on. Jesus was based Jehosua Pandira and was born about 120
BC. The Christ of Paulus is a fictious character. - And I agree H. P.
Blavatsky does not have the final word in everything. But in this case I
will make a clear exception based on my own experiences!
Why are there no real historical evidence about the claimed Gospel Jesus at
the time of Pilate?
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: <Augoeides-222@comcast.net>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World 2012 ?
Morten,
It isn't important whether H.P.B. agreed with Mead. She did mention the
Joshua ben Pandira if I recall correctly. But I also seem to recall she did
not validate it as truth. It would be nonsense, she understood where that
malicious rumor came from. That is not to say that she did not place the
time of Jesus earlier as did G R S Mead. But I maintain she never accepted
your version.
It isn't a case of HPB being as you say, because everyone in the world
that knows this knows that Joshuas ben Pandira is pure bull Morten lol!
And I simply don't accept your akashic recalls as truth. Just my personal
prerogative.
G R S Mead is the only Theosophist of Madame Blavatsky's circle that was
recognized as a Scholar worldwide then and now and his works are not" well
meant friendly ideas and angles" he reports true history that has wide
agreement by Scholars all over the world in contrast to your posited ideas.
He was personal Secretary to Blavatsky. You should read his works for good
facts. Just because The Romans and Rabbis invented false ridicule and
reports doesn't make them true, they both had perverse motives. The Romans
feared the new religion. The Rabbis hated what they saw as a false messiah
and created false reports as a distraction.
Blavatsky is not the final word on all things to me, sorry.
Regards,
John
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
Sure.
John wrote:
"G. R. S. Mead in his survey says it is invalid and was created for the
purpose of ridiclue."
Did H. P. Blavatsky state this view anywhere? Did she not state the quite
opposite and said that it was a - fact - that Jesus (Joshua Pandira) was
born appr. 120 BC.?
Mead was not on the same level as H. P. Blavatsky. Some persons are looking
at the Akasha records instead. And their views are not quite the same as G.
R. S. Mead's wellmeant friendly scholary ideas and angles.
---
Let us at least remember David Pratt's articles on Jesus and the gospels.
They have some interesting and valid content.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/jesus.htm (On Jesus)
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/christian.htm (On the Gospels)
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: <Augoeides-222@comcast.net>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World 2012 ?
Morten,
You seem attached to the Joshua ben Pandera abusive Roman ridicule for
some reason. G. R. S. Mead in his survey says it is invalid and was created
for the purpose of ridiclue. Their version of Joshua ben Pandera ( a
fallacious, false name is that a Roman Centurian had sex with a whore who
conceived and birthed the Christ Child.In that time it was a malicious rumor
used to smear, ridicule and make nothing of this upstart religion of the
early Christians. There are no tangible credible records of the Romans in
regard to Jesus of Nazareth. G. R. S. Mead also wrote "Did Jesus Live 100
B.C.". An inquiry into the Talmudic Jesus stories, the Toldoth Jeschu, and
some curious statements of Epiphanius--- being a contribution to the study
of Christian Origins by G.R.S. Mead B .A. M.R.A.S., 1903.
Also I recommend his "Fragments of a Faith Forgotten" an indispensable
survey recommended by all Religious Scholars , Library of Congress #
60-15310.
Regards,
John
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
Allright.
Jesus (Jehosua Pandira) was mortal, and Christ was and is not.
I think I got it now.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:21 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World 2012 ?
Calleman is saying that the date is 28 October 2011
Cass
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/2012/id/1726
________________________________
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 20 December, 2008 4:57:20 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World 2012 ?
Is there anyone who can help me out, and who understands Christina words in
this thread?
M. Sufillight
----- Original Message -----
From: christinaleestemake r
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World 2012 ?
If you and you think for others, don't understand me; While you don't
understand what masters say on it.That are not my words, I only
citate them.
Christina
-- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
theosophy@.. .> wrote:
>
> My views are:
>
> Yes?
> And then what?
>
> ---
> I am not sure I and others understand you.
>
>
> M. Sufilight
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: christinaleestemake r
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:53 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World 2012 ?
>
>
> Ok as I read in Mahatma Letters, Jesus as mortal like anyone of
us,
> an adept more by his inherent purity and ignorance of real evil,
> than by what he have learned with his initiated rabbis and the
> already (at that period) fast degenerating Eyptian Hierophants
and
> priests. etc
> Letter 59 page 339 Barkers edition 1979
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
> theosophy@> wrote:
> >
> > My views are:
> >
> > The "darkness" mentioned by Blavatsky is about when Jesus
(Joshua
> Pandira) was born and when he taught. Today the Christian Church
is,
> as far as I view it, still in darkness, and a number of those who
> call themselves filled with wisdom are also in darkness, because
they
> find the Bible to be infallible.
> >
> >
> > M. Sufilight
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: christinaleestemake r
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 6:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World 2012 ?
> >
> >
> > So what after 33 years? If 1-33 is darkness, is not the whole
> > darkness?
> > Christina
> >
> > /
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen"
<global-
> > theosophy@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear friends
> > >
> > > My views are:
> > >
> > > Blavatsky and Master said that Jesus was born in Lod (Lydda)
> year
> > 120 BC.
> > >
> > > W. C. Leadbeater and Annie Besant said 105 BC. And Alice A.
> Bailey
> > wrote a book titled "From Bethlehem to Calvary" saying in this
> book,
> > that "the historical accuracy of His story remains as yet
> unsolved"
> > and "for when He was born at Bethlehem, it was not simply the
> birth
> > of another divine Teacher and Messenger" .
> > >
> > >
> > > Now who is telling the truth?
> > >
> > > - - -
> > >
> > > H. P. Blavatsky on the New Testament and Jesus:
> > > "This theory of the seven keys, the Church, according to the
> Abbé
> > Roca, has simplified "without disfiguring it," reducing the
keys
> to
> > three; while, on the contrary, it has fabricated three false
keys
> > which do not open anything. The legend of which I speak is
> founded,
> > as I have demonstrated over and over again in my writings and
my
> > notes, on the existence of a personage called Jehoshua (from
> which
> > Jesus has been made) born at Lüd or Lydda about 120 years
before
> the
> > modern era. And if this fact is denied-to which I can hardly
> object-
> > one must resign oneself to regard the hero of the drama of
> Calvary as
> > a myth pure and simple. As a matter of fact, in spite of all
the
> > desperate research made during long centuries, if we set aside
> the
> > testimony of the "Evangelists, " i.e., unknown men whose
identity
> has
> > never been established, and that of the Fathers of the Church,
> > interested fanatics, neither history, nor profane tradition,
> neither
> > official documents, nor the contemporaries of the soi-disant
> drama,
> > are able to provide one single serious proof of the historical
> and
> > real existence, not only of the Man-God but even of him called
> Jesus
> > of Nazareth, from the year 1 to the year 33. All is darkness
and
> > silence."
> > > (H. P. Blavatsly's Collected Writings, vol. 9, p. 225-6).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > M. Sufilight
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: christinaleestemake r
> > > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:31 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Theos-World 2012 ?
> > >
> > >
> > > Right, no one can be sure, for we have not been in the time
> Jezus
> > was
> > > born.It was written that he was there long before the
counting
> > > started in the year 1 from our calender
> > >
> > > Christina
> > >
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@ >
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Not sure what you are getting at Christina
> > > > Cass
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: christinaleestemake r <christinaleestemak er@>
> > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 17 December, 2008 10:03:26 PM
> > > > Subject: Theos-World 2012 ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I read somewhere Leon wrote to Cass the change in 2012 but
we
> > must
> > > > not forget that our beginning of yearcounting happened 7
> years
> > > after
> > > > Jezus birthday.
> > > > Christina
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter
> > > now http://au.docs. yahoo.com/ homepageset/ ?
> > p1=other&p2= au&p3=tagline
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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