Theos-Talk Archives (December 2008 Message tt00111)

Dear Morten,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Indeed, this is the starting
point for an interesting and stimulating  dialogue! Permit me a few
days to get my answers in order, as I would very much like to extend
the same courtesey to you, that you granted me.

Kind regards,

Theo

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen"
<global-theosophy@...> wrote:
>
> Dear friends and Theo
> 
> My views are:
> 
> Thank you for your reply.
> 
> Here are a few words with my comments using *******.
> 
> I wouldn't go there if I were you, not unless you would have had a
> fair grounding in ufology. The vimana saga, for instance, rests on a
> translation published no earlier than 1922 - and its sources are
suspect.
> 
> *******
> What saga is resting on what?
> What manuscript are you referring to?
> 
> 
> 
> 1.
> *** H. P. Blavatsky about the issue in The Secret Doctrine. - 1888 ***
> 
> The Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky, vol. 2, p. 426:
> "It is from the Fourth Race that the early Aryans got their
knowledge of "the bundle of wonderful things," the Sabha and 
> 
> Mayasabha, mentioned in the Mahabhârata, the gift of Mayâsur to the
Pándavas. It is from them that they learnt 
> 
> aëronautics, Viwan Vidya (the "knowledge of flying in
air-vehicles"), and, therefore, their great arts of meteorography 
> 
> and meteorology. It is from them, again, that the Aryans inherited
their most valuable science of the hidden virtues of 
> 
> precious and other stones, of chemistry, or rather alchemy, of
mineralogy, geology, physics and astronomy."
> ( http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/SDVolume2.htm )
> 
> 
> *** Col. Henry S Olcott - 1881 ***
> "The ancient Hindus could navigate the air, and not only navigate
it, but fight battles in it like so many war-eagles 
> 
> combating for the domination of the clouds. To be so perfect in
aeronautics, they must have known all the arts and 
> 
> sciences related to the science, including the strata and currents
of the atmosphere, the relative temperature, humidity, 
> 
> density and specific gravity of the various gases..." 
> 
> Col. Henry S Olcott (1832 - 1907) American author, attorney,
philosopher, and cofounder of the Theosophical Society in a 
> 
> lecture in Allahabad, in 1881.   
> 
> 
> 2.
> And the Ramayana are talking about flying vehicles:
> Jagat Singh (1628-1652) commisioned the manuscript.
> And the British got 4 of the original volumes of it in 1820.
> 
> *** Ramayana,  and The Demon King Ravana ***
> "In the Ramayana, the pushpaka ("flowery") vimana of Ravana is
described as follows:
> 
>     "The Pushpaka chariot that resembles the Sun and belongs to my
brother was brought by the powerful Ravana; that aerial 
> 
> and excellent chariot going everywhere at will .... that chariot
resembling a bright cloud in the sky ... and the King 
> 
> [Rama] got in, and the excellent chariot at the command of the
Raghira, rose up into the higher atmosphere.'"[3]
> 
> It is the first flying vimana mentioned in Hindu mythology (as
distinct from the gods' flying horse-drawn chariots).
> 
> Pushpaka was originally made by Maya for Kubera, the God of wealth,
but was later stolen, along with Lanka, by his 
> 
> half-brother, the demon king Ravana."
> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimana )
> 
> 3.
> The  Yuktikalpataru of Bhoja includes a reference to aerial cars in
verses 48-50 and a manuscript of the work belonging to 
> 
> the Calcutta Sanskrit College dated at 1870 A.D. 
> 
> 
> 4.
> Vimanas depicted at the Ellora Caves
> http://www.jalandhar.co.in/technology-of-hindu-gods_clip_image001.gif
> 
> 
> 5.
> Samarangana Sutradhara
> "Samarangana Sutradhara is an encyclopedic work on classical Indian
architecture (Vastu Shastra) written by Paramara King 
> 
> Bhoja of Dhar (1000-1055 AD).
> 
> In 83 chapters, subjects treated are town planning, house
architecture, temple architecture and sculptural arts together 
> 
> with Mudras (the different hand poses and the poses of the body as
well as the postures of legs), the canons of painting, 
> 
> and a chapter on the art of mechanical contrivances, the yantras
(chapter 31).
> 
> This chapter on yantras has attracted the attention of pseudoscience
and ufology in particular.[1] Verses 95-100 mentions 
> 
> bird-shaped aerial cars (Vimanas), and verses 101-107 mention a sort
of robots acting as guards."
> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarangana_Sutradhara )
> 
> 
> I am told on the inner lines that various persons within UNESCO are
seeking to reveal that the ancient civilisations of 
> 
> the past more likely than not possed - very advanced - technology,
we not even today have an inkling of knowledge and 
> 
> understanding about. And that one of them seemed to be the ability
of building flying machines and various mechanical 
> 
> devices. I am also told, that various hardliners and various
Bible-readers see or want to see it all differently.
> Am I wrong and far of the track here?
> 
> 
> *******
> 
> As to ufology: one would do best to study for instance Jerome Clarke's
> 'UFO Encyclopedia' and to familiarise oneself with the current state
> of ufology. And of course, the books of Charles Fort are mandatory.
> 
> Now if you do not understand the complexity of the field of ufology,
> any citation of Steven Greer's project is greatly out of order.
> 
> *******
> Why would it be out of Order?
> *******
> 
> Theosophy and ufology? Already in the past we have seen some highly
> disputable and downright ill fated hoaxes stemming from that
> combination. Ufology strives to attain and maintain scientific
> standards. Esotery, by its very nature, does not.
> 
> *******
> There will always be hoaxes. Was H. P. Blavatsky a hoax when she
talked about Vimanas
> in her day? Are we wrong in talking about them and Aliens/Devas today?
> *******
> 
> 
> The two are incompatible, unless you'd like to take the zanier fringes
> of ufodom into account. After all, in ufology, any connection between
> theosophy and the ufo phenomenon is generally frowned upon and rightly
> so, as it delivered nothing but cosmic tricksters like Adamski and
> Williamson, the philosophical groundings of the contactee movement,
> the strange claims of Wilhelm Landig back in Vienna, in short, all the
> aspects of the occult approach of the mystery of the ufo phenomenon,
> and that sits not very well with ufology. And rightly so. I would put
> the thoughts and musings of any theosophist immersed in an
> interpretation of the ufo phenomenon in quarantaine, as invariably
> such an interpretation would be tainted with a decidedly esoterist and
> theosophiacl outlook. And there is no science or objectivity in that.
> 
> 
> *******
> With such an attitude, which should also be rightly in frowning upon
> the theosophical teachings of ages past. Where is the difference,
may I ask?
> 
> And why frown at all?
> *******
> 
> On the other hand, a fruitful example of this merging between
> esoterism and ufology is found in the 1940's Borderlands group
> surrounding medium Mark Probert and Meade Layne. Layne was a onetime
> member of the Society of Inner Light led by Dion Fortune, who in turn
> was a member of Moina Mathers'Golden Dawn lodge. Borderlands thus in
> fact forming a branch of the venerable teachings of the Golden Dawn. 
> 
> 
> *******
> Well...That was almost a heretical comment there, that one talking
about The Golden Dawn.
> But I find Meade Layne a most interesting person.
> 
> Yet I wonder why Borderland.com want money for telling people the truth?
> *******
> 
> Not that the legacy of Borderlands is accepted in ufology in general,
> but they were of influence to one of the most influential writers and
> researchers in ufology, John Keel. Not only that, one could make a
> case for the emergence of the psychosocial school of ufology, as being
> the ultimate distillate of esoterism and science. But not, I am
> afraid, through the Theosophical Society.
> 
> 
> *******
> May I ask: Why not through the Theosophical Society?
> I like being an optimist and all.
> *******
> 
> Sincere regards,
> 
> 
> Theo Paijmans
> 
> 
> *******
> 
> Sincerely as weell
> M. Sufilight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: paijmanstheo 
>   To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:07 PM
>   Subject: Theos-World Re: A New Age? - * HPB and Mahatmas vs. UFO's
and Aliens today*
> 
> 
>   I wouldn't go there if I were you, not unless you would have had a
>   fair grounding in ufology. The vimana saga, for instance, rests on a
>   translation published no earlier than 1922 - and its sources are
suspect.
> 
>   As to ufology: one would do best to study for instance Jerome Clarke's
>   'UFO Encyclopedia' and to familiarise oneself with the current state
>   of ufology. And of course, the books of Charles Fort are mandatory.
> 
>   Now if you do not understand the complexity of the field of ufology,
>   any citation of Steven Greer's project is greatly out of order.
> 
>   Theosophy and ufology? Already in the past we have seen some highly
>   disputable and downright ill fated hoaxes stemming from that
>   combination. Ufology strives to attain and maintain scientific
>   standards. Esotery, by its very nature, does not.
> 
>   The two are incompatible, unless you'd like to take the zanier fringes
>   of ufodom into account. After all, in ufology, any connection between
>   theosophy and the ufo phenomenon is generally frowned upon and rightly
>   so, as it delivered nothing but cosmic tricksters like Adamski and
>   Williamson, the philosophical groundings of the contactee movement,
>   the strange claims of Wilhelm Landig back in Vienna, in short, all the
>   aspects of the occult approach of the mystery of the ufo phenomenon,
>   and that sits not very well with ufology. And rightly so. I would put
>   the thoughts and musings of any theosophist immersed in an
>   interpretation of the ufo phenomenon in quarantaine, as invariably
>   such an interpretation would be tainted with a decidedly esoterist and
>   theosophiacl outlook. And there is no science or objectivity in that.
> 
>   On the other hand, a fruitful example of this merging between
>   esoterism and ufology is found in the 1940's Borderlands group
>   surrounding medium Mark Probert and Meade Layne. Layne was a onetime
>   member of the Society of Inner Light led by Dion Fortune, who in turn
>   was a member of Moina Mathers'Golden Dawn lodge. Borderlands thus in
>   fact forming a branch of the venerable teachings of the Golden Dawn. 
> 
>   Not that the legacy of Borderlands is accepted in ufology in general,
>   but they were of influence to one of the most influential writers and
>   researchers in ufology, John Keel. Not only that, one could make a
>   case for the emergence of the psychosocial school of ufology, as being
>   the ultimate distillate of esoterism and science. But not, I am
>   afraid, through the Theosophical Society.
> 
>   Sincere regards,
> 
>   Theo Paijmans
> 
>   --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen"
>   <global-theosophy@> wrote:
>   >
>   > Dear friends
>   > 
>   > My views are:
>   > 
>   > A New Age? - * HPB and Mahatmas vs. UFO's and Aliens today*
>   > Is a New Age approaching the TS branches and the Alice A. Bailey
groups?
>   > Is the UFO's and Aliens the present day answer to HPB and the
>   Mahatmas of the past?
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > I have som days back e-mailed about the "The Disclosure Project"
>   > A project about UFO's and the realites about Cropcircles.
>   > http://www.netro.ca/disclosure/npccmenu.htm
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > *** Phoenix Lights ***
>   > Former senator and thousands others claimed to have seen a huge UFO
>   hovering over Phoenix in 1997. The senator is now at least partly a
>   member of the Disclosure Project.
>   > http://www.thephoenixlights.net/
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > A few questions:
>   > 
>   > Let us suppose, that UFO's and cropcircles are real in the sense,
>   that Aliens (or Star people and Devas etc.) visits us.
>   > If so, - is then not reasonable to at least compare these present
>   day events of UFO's and cropcircles in many humans lives - with the
>   emergence of the Theosophical Society with H. P. Blavatsky and her
>   Mahatmas, those 25 persons who saw them, and the Mahatma Letters and
>   those who received them? Is it unfair to compare these to issues?
>   > 
>   > Interestingly the TS was started in New York and transferred to
India.
>   > The UFO case started in USA. What if it is stranferred to India and
>   the Congress of India?
>   > What would the politicians of India have to say about it?
>   > 
>   > We know that they were flying before the Wright brothers, and the
>   talk of Vimanas in ancient Indian scriptures are of course not
>   something, which politicians can completely ignore, is it?
>   > 
>   > 
>   > Ancient Indian Aircraft Technology
>   > They flew in 1895 before the Wright Brothers in india.
>   > http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_7.htm
>   > 
>   > - - -
>   > 
>   > Ufo incident near Presidents recidence in Delhi march 2007:
>   > An article about the incident....
>   >
>  
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/ufos-over-delhi-they-blinked-on-radar-near-pm-house/top/36030-3.html?xml
>   > One Video. Talk about the issue was reported on several news
>   channels last year.
>   >
http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/36030/were-there-ufos-over-pms-house.html
>   > 
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
> 
> 
> 
>    
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>