Theos-Talk Archives (December 2008 Message tt00090)

Theosophists are indebted to the Tibetans ancient teachings which I believe results in an empathy towards them. Is it really a matter of losing or gaining - or is it karma that we have no understanding of - perhaps their is a lesson here for both the tibetans and the chinese and for theosphists

Cass




________________________________
From: adelasie <adelasie@sbcglobal.net>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 7 December, 2008 1:59:06 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Some thoughts on the situation of Tibet


Perhaps we could consider that we do not completely understand the 
necessities of Tibetan politics, not being Tibetan, and that our 
Western approach, while it might (or might not) work for us, might 
also simply not apply to Tibet. Perhaps it is worthwhile to offer 
unconditional love and support to such a great leader of his people, 
who has endured unimaginable trials and suffering but who has 
maintained his serenity and compassion. Why not try the theosophical 
precepts of forgiveness, non-judgementalism, and unconditional love 
when considering our attitude toward His Holiness the Dalai Lama? 
Last month or so we were busy on this list trashing our own leader, 
HPB. She however is gone from this plane and her personal work, if 
you can call it that, is done. HH the Dalai Lama is still here and is 
still working and his work is our work. Why not practice solidarity? 
What have we got to lose? And, on the other hand, have we not 
literally everything to gain? 

Adelasie

On 6 Dec 2008 at 13:02, Raquel RodrÃguez wrote:

> 
> Dear John
> 
> Thank you alsofor your comments
> I was trying to recover a part of my faith on truthfulness of the DL, 
> but your answers fade them away.
> Power seems to be such a chronic pathology in Human kind. I still 
> hope that the DL would find the way to search for the best of his 
> folk and that international community menage to find a fear position 
> on this conflict. Just a hope a donÂt really want to loose
> 
> Very Best Regards
> 
> Raquel
> 
> --- El miÃ, 3/12/08, Augoeides-222@ comcast.net <Augoeides-
> 222@comcast. net> escribiÃ:
> 
> De: Augoeides-222@ comcast.net <Augoeides-222@ comcast.net>
> Asunto: Re: Theos-World Re: Some thoughts on the situation of Tibet
> Para: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Fecha: miÃrcoles, 3 diciembre, 2008 9:19
> 
> Raquel,
> Thanks for your comments and reply.
> 
> >>> Do you then think this new ban impose by the DL over the Dorje
> Shudgen sect is meant to reward other sects, from the oppression ever 
> suffered
> by the first?<<<
> 
> Well, my view is this action to suppress the Dorje Shugden Sect is 
> only a
> continuation of the historical Gelugpa repression of practice of 
> belief of other
> sects in Tibet as I indicated previously in posts. I have read that 
> the sect is
> accused of crimes that include murder and other violations but i 
> don't know
> the true facts myself. Some look on this as "positive reform" that is
> intended to force all into the one path of the middle way. The 
> original
> "reform" was not in the non-violent mode as historians record. This is
> a rationalization that has been widely accepted for many centuries 
> and is not
> opposed now. But if freedom of expression, thought, idea's are 
> repressed it
> only gives others a basis to use as a sword against Tibet. The 
> Gelugpa were
> happy to see the Chinese deprive Tibet of Shigatse and the Tashi Lama 
> as
> Spiritual Head ofTibett which he represented as one of the two 
> Reflectivity Rays
> of the Buddha as found in Doctrine. They then used this to assume 
> both Rays
> which wer
> e beyond beyond in origin and not mortal and unique to the Buddha 
> Nature. They
> argue expedient need and neccnecessitye it the only choice. But I 
> think they
> wanted it to consolidate power and could have resisted more ( even 
> thought they
> refused to recognize the appointed Chinese tashTashiaLamaThe two 
> Reflectivity
> rays are "Spiritual" and Administrative" ---- "Heaven and
> Earth" . When China deprived Tibet of the Ordained Tashi Lama who was
> chosen by the same process as the Dalai Lama and 
> acquacquiescenceear ed , it was
> the turning point that gave China encouragement and the indicator 
> that they
> could take it all and not have appreciable resistance in Tibet that 
> was covertly
> held by the Gelugpa.
> Buddhism and the Science of Life by Alice Leighton Cleather, Section 
> III
> Tibetan Initiates is good reading here. Tsong-kha-pa was born at Koko-
> Nor and
> was the Reformer, it is interesting to me that this was where the 
> Chinese later
> decided to test their nuclear and hydrogen weapons, maybe it wasn't by
> chance. Page 71 has an interesting note that amy anye provided 
> empeimpetusthe
> Chinese. They removed the Spiritual Instructor to leave the earthly
> Administrator whom they later crushed within Tibet.
> It wasn't just the inability of the Dalai Lama who, when recognizing
> the nature of the atheistic communists by direct experience, fled to 
> India with
> what he could manage alone. It was the world itself, the times, the 
> destitution
> of nations after WWII, the Permanent Veto mechanism of the UN Sec. 
> Council, the
> public ignorance of the strategic importance of the top of the world 
> and Tibet
> and it's Religion and people, and many other factors. Today Tibet is 
> now
> tibet which has now a Chinese name and no longer is identified by 
> China as Tibet
> at all and recognized by the World as Formally Part of China whether 
> any of us
> like it or not. This type of thing will only be changed when and if 
> China
> disintegrates, that is historical empirical process among the 
> Nations, one
> observable example is the of thef the USSR and the Soviets which 
> released thie
> captive nations. Earlier examples can be seen in overall world 
> history. New maps
> do not show the former Tibet, Google Earth doesn't show the f
> ormer Tibet, the Information Please Almanac does not index Tibet 
> anymore as a
> Nation .
> 
> >>>I believe He is fighting on a position he knows there is a
> possibility to win something and abandoning the positions that are 
> already
> totally lost in order to avoid further pain.<<<
> 
> Well pragmatically he is in a final corner, any internal resistance 
> will be
> brutally crushed by China using brute force and other typical 
> Communist
> responses, there are some excellent Videos online that were made at 
> risk of life
> that people can view. I don't see any viable possioflity of the of 
> then of
> the Tibetan Diaspora to their historicl Homeland. Internal 
> forcsceneainst China
> will not change the scene there in my personal view.
> 
> >>>Fighting to preserve the culture by denying the independence, would
> keep the inner strength save and a more gentle future events migth 
> say whether
> is possible or not to gain the lost independence. But if the culture 
> is so
> hardly attached now, it wont be much hope in the future for a folk 
> that has been
> disintegrated, to recover independence. <<<
> 
> Yes the Culturewhy Religion is being saved that is whay I reference 
> "How
> the Swans (Tibetan Religion, Tulku's, and Culture) Came to America" it
> was a prediction and prophecy of long ago by Terma and Terton of 
> Tibet. Tibet
> has not died but has moved for a period that may not change in our 
> lifetimes. In
> Europe many Tibetan Gompa and Teachers have come, the same here in 
> America and
> other places in the world they have been well received by eager 
> aspirants. The
> Dalai Lama and his Organization has performed admirable and very 
> commendable
> works to implement the survival of the tortuouss of Tibetan Religion 
> under
> torturous dangerous conditions but have had wonderful results and 
> success as
> seen in present time the formally repressed sects were helped to 
> eworldlargely
> intact, they now teach wporld wide in a transformation process which 
> reaches
> maTibetan'sthan previously. Even if the Tibetans had not suppressed 
> the
> Dorge Shugden the Chinese would surely.ten around to then in due 
> order.
> 
> >>>Still I find so hard to believe, that he would turn his head away
> from the suffering of his folk at least he is trying to do something 
> to unite
> them or to reward past deeds or to abandon way course of action that 
> causes
> disintegration. <<<
> 
> One must look at what he actually said publically to the world at 
> large as
> formal statements.
> 
> 1. He has stated he personally does not view himself as Tulku but 
> only as
> ordinary human being.
> 2. He recognizes that Tiseparateart of China and no longer apleadste 
> Nation..
> 3. He pleades to the Chinese for internal autonomy and administrative 
> rights
> under Chinese rule as a subject state of ChiTibetan's>
> 4. He has instructed Tibetans within Tibet not to attempt to use 
> force against
> the Chinese.
> 
> These statements are very instructive to anyone.
> 
> I have a view that people should nparticularlysp; Human Rights as an 
> issue
> particularily in the case of China in Tibet to help assuage the 
> suffering of
> those who remain in spite of the Imperial carry over of historical 
> China by the
> Communist Atheists. I can remember when Richard Nixon was President 
> here in
> America the "Opening to China" become formal Policy of the Unites
> States of America. After that many changes appeared, papers were 
> writin by Think
> Tanks here announcing that the Torch will be given to China for the 
> next
> Century, I thought they were all crazy then but it happened. The 
> recent Olympics
> in China were a culminating event. People simply have forgotten the
> lesconqueredhistory and how empires suppressed conquerd populations 
> old and new.
> I am astonished how fast memories of evil disappear in the mind of 
> man.
> 
> The Soviets slaughtered 40,000 men, women and children in 1956,I 
> helped a full
> Colonel of the Regular Hungarian Army escape who was in utter 
> terrified fear of
> his life even after he wautteree Europe, countenancever shumanuch 
> uter terror on
> the contenance of a huamn being. I have seen the face of Evil and 
> will never
> forget who is Regardse by.
> 
> Regrads
> John
> 
> ------------ -- Original message ------------ --
> From: Raquel RodrÃguez <raquel_rpj@yahoo. es>
> John
> ÂDo you then think this new ban impose by the DL over the Dorje 
> Shudgen sect
> is meant to reward other sects, from the oppression ever suffered by 
> the first?
> I am just trying to understand why the DL has got to this position.
> I understand, even if criticized by itÂs own folk, that he just tries 
> to
> negotiate with the Chinese, even if accused of selling the country to 
> the enemy,
> at least to preserve the culture and costumes of his folk, which 
> would be in
> deed a jewel for the rest of the world and also the inner strength of 
> Tibetan
> people Âwhat real possibility, without the help of international 
> community,
> would Tibetan folk have to recover their independence? , none I think. 
> I believe
> He is fighting on a position he knows there is a possibility to win 
> something
> and abandoning the positions that are already totally lost in order 
> to avoid
> further pain.
> Fighting to preserve the culture by denying the independence, would 
> keep the
> inner strength save and a more gentle future events migth say whether 
> is
> possible or not to gain the lost independence. But if the culture is 
> so hardly
> attached now, it wont be much hope in the future for a folk that has 
> been
> disintegrated, to recover independence.
> I have only seen the information posted on this page about the Dorje 
> Shudgen
> conflict and his position in this, can not be understood, from my 
> point of view,
> at least there are historical facts I ignore.
> Still I find so hard to believe, that he would turn his head away 
> from the
> suffering of his folk at least he is trying to do something to unite 
> them or to
> reward past deeds or to abandon way course of action that causes 
> disintegration.
> 
> Very Best Regards
> 
> Raquel
> 
> --- El mar, 2/12/08, Augoeides-222@ comcast.net
> <Augoeides-222@ comcast.net> escribiÃ:
> 
> De: Augoeides-222@ comcast.net <Augoeides-222@ comcast.net>
> Asunto: Re: Theos-World Re: Some thoughts on the situation of Tibet
> Para: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Fecha: martes, 2 diciembre, 2008 3:32
> 
> Richard,
> Not intending to offend people who hold GDP is high regard. My 
> personal view is
> he had zero idea of real Tibetan History and carries the karma for 
> grossly
> misinforming a huge number of people that valued his erroneous 
> renditions which
> are equivelent to nothing more than Theosophical fantasy's where he 
> never
> knew of the oppressions of all the Tibetan sects by the Gelugpa such 
> as is
> written by David Reigle and many Historians? How did theosophical 
> teachers rely
> on bullcrap? GDP was never any expert on Tibet based on the quote you 
> used. One
> can make almost any assertion to ignorant uninformed masses of 
> followers and the
> general public and on a snap decision they will follow in suit as 
> long as the
> assertion seems plausible and reasonable and aligns with the group 
> agreements,
> but that doesn't make it right or correct. Just my personal views. 
> There
> were huge omissions by Theosophy back then as to events on the world 
> stage.
> Krakatoa seems to have been ignored
> in the main. The history
> of the British Troops in Tibet, the Russians, and others needs to be 
> read from
> real Historians and then compared to Theosophy views. I don't mean 
> there
> should not be "esoteric" views given in Theosophy but there is no
> possibility that true real events that really happened can ever be 
> ignored in
> favor of unsubstantiated assertions that have no real basis and that 
> when you
> look and it ends in a blind alley where no records are obtainable the 
> ground is
> treacherous.
> The Gelugpa committed gross overt acts against any in Tibet who
> helvariantnBuddhist st views that includes also the Tashi Lama. 
> Exterminating,
> burning, making anathema Kagyu, Sakya , Jonompa, and the others to 
> include the
> Bon and also Shaminism. It was anything but a Happy time, tens of 
> thousands of
> Tibetans lived in fear of severe grave reprisals and even death for 
> many
> centuries not from a foreign power, but from the Gelugpsuccessionon. 
> Their
> Monastery's were burnt to the ground by Gelugpa. Their sacred Texts,
> Sutra'sReligious Objects and History's were destroyed and burnt with a
> zeal that equeleequeledquisit ion that HPB wrote so much about. Isn't 
> it
> curious that the so morale, ethical followers invent 
> ratirationalization
> saccomadate their need to accept bullcrap? At least there is one 
> person that
> accepts group karma for theitheir deeds of the past and is making 
> efforts to
> unburden the accumaccumulationt is the Dalai Lama Lamaelf in the 
> current era.
> Just my view. I adjure peopl
> e to read the actual history of negotiations with the TibeTibetan' 
> sing the
> modern period it is hysterically rediredictulous the extreme and had 
> me in tears
> laughing at the mindless responses of the Gelugpa and the 
> AdmAdministrativevG
> overnmentat nearly drove any foreigner insane lol!!!
> 
> When is comes to real History I have found Theosophical versions 
> skewed,
> contorted, absent of real factual analysisin several cases. It is 
> very "New
> Age" in the context of la la land acceptance of pure baloney in 
> certain
> cases. I don't think Tibet had "abominable intestines", I think he
> was trying to say "abominable internecine" .
> 
> Sorry if Isensibilitys sensabilitys here but I have a terrible habit 
> if being
> some what direct and blunt atapologizeo I apoligize in advance 
> recognizing
> certain people have needs to be assuaged by some people who may read 
> this post.
> 
> Regards,
> John
> 
> ------------ -- Original message ------------ --
> From: "Richard Semock" <semockr@hotmail. com>
> I know it as moksha and consider myself on the path of pratyeka as
> one that does not like sudden changes but once freed from the wheel,
> dont expect to see me returning in selfless service to mankind or
> anything of the kind. Its strictly splitsville for me. Until then
> however I see a responsibility to ensure that Kali Yuga does not win
> in Tibet.
> 
> As for the Tashi Lama, GdeP, the expert theosophist and a big say in
> certain circles has this to say. His prescience in this matter as is
> his prediction of conditions on the moon turns out to be something of
> a turnabout according to what he says in the last paragraph:
> 
> "Is it known why the Dalai Lama drove the Tashi Lama out into India?
> He has had to fly to Mongolia and live there in seclusion and hide
> there. It seems a mystery. [Question asked in 1932]
> 
> It is a mystery. I can tell you this: if the truth were known, there
> was no 'driving out' at all. Tibet has been doing its best in
> desperation to keep its frontiers inviolate against the hammering
> tactics of Western European powers trying to penetrate into the
> country; and they have resorted to the age-old Asiatic ways of
> diplomacy -- letting things appear which are not so, if you
> understand me.
> 
> It is true that Tibet in the past has had abominable intestine
> struggles and wars; but that was mostly before the reformation of
> Tsong-kha-pa. After his time, which was the fourteenth century of our
> era, things have been quieter; and century after century has seen a
> happy people, light-hearted, loving learning, cultivating the things
> of the spirit and of the mind.
> 
> There is a great future before the Tibetans. They are a 'young race,'
> evolutionally speaking. They are going to come forth in the future.
> But they won't be Tibetans then as the Tibetans now are."
> 
> Studies in Occult Philosophy by G. de Purucker
> Theosophical University Press Online Edition
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, Augoeides-222@ ... wrote:
> >
> > Erica,
> > There is more than one spelling even in India and sometimes in
> country's in Europe they have their own version. Take your choice,
> Moksha is fine also it means final liberation.
> >
> > Regards,
> > John
> >
> > ------------ -- Original message ------------ --
> > From: Erica Letzerich <eletzerich@ ...>
> > Maybe you mean Moksha?
> > Erica
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: "Augoeides-222@ ..." <Augoeides-222@ ...>
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 7:28:51 PM
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Some thoughts on the situation of Tibet
> >
> > Morten,
> > The tradition of Moskva is ancient Hindu and long before there was
> any Russia or Moscow by more than 4000 years lol! I agree it strikes
> the mind as "Moscow" if one is not familiar. Moskva
> means "Liberation" .
> > Another interesting word from Hindu is "Svar" (Svarupa) it is
> found
> in several forms, but in the stream of time it's permutative presence
> is also found in many prominent cultures. Such as:
> > Caesar--- Rome
> > Czar ----Russia
> > Kaiser---Germany
> >
> > Regards,
> > John
> >
> > ------------ -- Original message ------------ --
> > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@ stofanet.
> dk>
> > LOL
> > Thanks, that touched my heart.
> > In my country the word "moskva" is the same as the capitol in
> Russia.
> > I was flat on the floor laughing with tears and all.
> >
> > But allright.
> > Carry on.
> >
> > M. Sufilight
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Augoeides-222@ comcast.net
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 6:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Some thoughts on the situation of Tibet
> >
> > Richard,
> > >>> The thought that in order for anyone to be freed from the
> wheel
> > everyone must be freed from it according to the Mahayana
> school.<<<
> >
> > I don't know where you got that view. The Mahayana also speaks of
> Pratyeka Buddha's who individually obtain moskva by not becoming
> Bodhisattva. There are also I believe several other unique individual
> conditionals that also allow Moscva before all others. The Vow of the
> Bodhisattva "return" is standard in both lay and left home in
> Mahayana. Hinayana has view of each person is on the gradual path and
> they don't have the Bodhisattva Tradition as the sudden school of
> Mahayana. In the Theosophical teaching the "return" is ingrained for
> us and is described as the "Selfless Service to Mankind" that
> dictates our choice option as the ideal in the samsaric journey. The
> Mahayana is called Sudden School and the Greater Vehicle and the
> Hinayana is called the Gradual School and the lesser Vehicle.
> >
> > I think people are forced to become apologists in many cases due to
> existential investment even when the reality is markedly removed from
> their cherished agreements.
> >
> > It seems everyone is in some form of denial in regards to the Tashi
> lama. My earlier point is made.
> >
> > Regards,
> > John
> >
> > ------------ -- Original message ------------ --
> > From: "Richard Semock" <semockr@hotmail. com>
> > The number of times that this job has been finished in all the
> rounds
> > and races is countless times, check it out in the akashic records
> if
> > you dont believe me. The Dalai Lama knows this and sees the cosmic
> > joke in it.
> >
> > The thought that in order for anyone to be freed from the wheel
> > everyone must be freed from it according to the mahayana school.
> The
> > hinayana school on the other hand believes that we can free
> ourselves
> > from the rounds and if we return as a bodhisattva to save others it
> > is by our own choice.
> >
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, Drpsionic@ . wrote:
> > >
> > > The Chinese would love nothing more than that surprise. It will
> > allow them
> > > to finish the job.
> > >
> > > For all it's geographic area, Tibet is a land of no strategic or
> > economic
> > > interest to any Western power. India may feel differently but how
> > differently
> > > is a question.
> > >
> > > Chuck the Heretic
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 11/28/2008 10:55:35 P.M. Central Standard
> Time,
> > > prmoliveira@ ... writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos-
> > talk@yahoogroups. com) ,
> > > Erica Letzerich <eletzerich@ ele>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear friends,
> > > >
> > > > Its very sad the position Dalai Lama was placed by China and
> the
> > > horrible lies and accusations perpetuated by the chinese against
> > the
> > > Dalai Lama. China also keeps on with their claims about the
> Indian
> > > territory Arunachal Pradesh. The Chinese are pressing the Indian
> > > government to not recognize any valid government of Tibet in
> Exile.
> > > As the situation gets worst, China reinforces the tension with
> the
> > > claim that states of Arunachal Pradesh used to belong to Tibet
> and
> > as
> > > so belong to China.
> > > >
> > > > We know the Chinese government has a strong campaign against
> > > anything related to Tibetan Buddhism and to Dalai Lama. Chineses
> > > working for the Chinese government are to be found everywhere in
> > the
> > > internet, and are the very first to make such kind of attacks.
> > China
> > > is becoming more agressive with its politics and if other nations
> > do
> > > not raise their voice against it, things promisses to get worst.
> > > Unfortunatly on 15 of November the British Chief Minister
> > recognized
> > > the Chinese sovereignty over Tibet.
> > > >
> > > > Recently the Dalai Lama made the following statements:
> > > >
> > > > "My trust in the Chinese
> > > > government has become thinner, thinner, thinner,"
> > > > "Suppression
> > > > is increasing and I cannot pretend that everything is OK."
> > > > "I
> > > > have to accept failure. Meantime among Tibetans in recent
> years,
> > our
> > > > approach failed to bring positive change inside Tibet, so
> > criticism
> > > has
> > > > also increased."
> > > >
> > > > Recently I've joined a group in google, dedicated to
> > the "Buddha"
> > > boy, more out
> > > > of curiosity to follow what is happening and what will be the
> > final
> > > > result of it. Their web-site was hacked yesterday, and a person
> > made
> > > > the following post: "Thank you to have allowed me to take
> your
> > land
> > > and
> > > > rape your women." I've also read uncountable articles
> in
> > different
> > > blogs of anonymous persons defending China and making horrible
> > > accusations against the Dalai Lama and Tibet. The Chinese
> > aggressive
> > > approach is not only centered on Tibet but underground they also
> > > work against Tibetan Buddhism. I am afraid that pretty soon the
> > > Chinese claims over Indian Territories will also increase.
> > > >
> > > > Some leaders must assume a very strong position against China
> > > claims and policies. Otherwise we shall soon witness much worst
> > > things happening.
> > >
> > > Dear Erica,
> > >
> > > The genocide of Tibetan people perpetrated by Communist China for
> > > more than 50 years is a very clear evidence that for the Western
> > > liberal democracies, led by the EU and the US, "human
> rights" is
> a
> > > nothing but a useful political slogan which serves to deflect
> > > attention from the fundamental fact that the 1.3 billion strong
> > > Chinese market is inded the central interest of the "freedom-
> > loving"
> > > nations.
> > >
> > > Call me a skeptic if you want, but I am convinced that not even
> > > Barack Obama would have the guts (or the interest) to take on
> > China
> > > on the issue of Tibet.
> > >
> > > Western liberal democracies continue to have blood on their
> hands.
> > > Every time they renew their "Most favoured nation status"
> with
> > China
> > > they do so on the background of torture, killing and raping of
> > many
> > > Tibetan Buddhist nuns, as well as of monks and activists. They
> > have
> > > condoned and continue to condone one of the most brutal political
> > > regimes in modern history. And they know it.
> > >
> > > When the Dalai Lama officially announced that he had given up on
> > > negotiating with China he was just being honest. You can't
> > negotiate
> > > with people that do not take you seriously.
> > >
> > > The Chinese government may soon have a surprise in their hands
> > when
> > > the more radical wings of the Tibetan movement call for full
> > > independence from China, instead of autonomy, and takes the
> > struggle
> > > to a new political level, in which nothing is excluded.
> > >
> > > So far for Tibet and the Tibetans Kali Yuga has won. So far.
> > >
> > > Pedro
> > >
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 

 


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