Theos-Talk Archives (December 2008 Message tt00089)

Raquel,
   Don't become disallusioned. As I said the Dalai Lama has made commendable efforts to restore a new those who long ago were repressed. And as a result he has earned their eternal thanks and gratitude for making sanctuary possible in the way he has. Remember also that he Traveled the world giving Initiation to the Kalachakra Teaching something  I think HPB was also initiated into even though it is a High Tantra Teaching not the lower form. 

>>> I still hope that the DL would find the way to search for the best of his folk and that international community menage to find a fear position on this conflict. <<<

   Well so do I, but it won't drop out of heaven so to speak, man is basically good but the Higher is submerged in the lower so the gradient is extremely slow. Perhaps those Tibetan's who remain and have sincere desire to follow the Swans will be allowed by the Chinese to have visas to leave as they move more Han into Tibet, I hope so.

   As I stated the UN passed Resolutions that created Formal Recognitions that are not revocable in any short term time line as many if not all of the major powers also participated in giving Tibet away to China. Yes Power has been a phenomena since the earliest civilizations, having a "Leader" is a demand perception and a way to organize mobs.

Here is one link that in it's content tells of cooperative work by the Dalai Lama and others:

Rigpa

>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa<<<

Regards,
John





-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: Raquel Rodríguez <raquel_rpj@yahoo.es> 
Dear John

Thank you also for your comments
I was trying to recover a part of my faith on truthfulness of the DL, but your answers fade them away. 
Power seems to be such a chronic pathology in Human kind. I still hope that the DL would find the way to search for the best of his folk and that international community menage to find a fear position on this conflict. Just a hope a don´t really want to loose

Very Best Regards

Raquel

--- El mié, 3/12/08, Augoeides-222@comcast.net <Augoeides-222@comcast.net> escribió:

De: Augoeides-222@comcast.net <Augoeides-222@comcast.net>
Asunto: Re: Theos-World Re: Some thoughts on the situation of Tibet
Para: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Fecha: miércoles, 3 diciembre, 2008 9:19

Raquel,
Thanks for your comments and reply.

>>> Do you then think this new ban impose by the DL over the Dorje
Shudgen sect is meant to reward other sects, from the oppression ever suffered
by the first?<<<

Well, my view is this action to suppress the Dorje Shugden Sect is only a
continuation of the historical Gelugpa repression of practice of belief of other
sects in Tibet as I indicated previously in posts. I have read that the sect is
accused of crimes that include murder and other violations but i don't know
the true facts myself. Some look on this as "positive reform" that is
intended to force all into the one path of the middle way. The original
"reform" was not in the non-violent mode as historians record. This is
a rationalization that has been widely accepted for many centuries and is not
opposed now. But if freedom of expression, thought, idea's are repressed it
only gives others a basis to use as a sword against Tibet. The Gelugpa were
happy to see the Chinese deprive Tibet of Shigatse and the Tashi Lama as
Spiritual Head ofTibett which he represented as one of the two Reflectivity Rays
of the Buddha as found in Doctrine. They then used this to assume both Rays
which wer
e beyond beyond in origin and not mortal and unique to the Buddha Nature. They
argue expedient need and neccnecessitye it the only choice. But I think they
wanted it to consolidate power and could have resisted more ( even thought they
refused to recognize the appointed Chinese tashTashiaLamaThe two Reflectivity
rays are "Spiritual" and Administrative" ---- "Heaven and
Earth" . When China deprived Tibet of the Ordained Tashi Lama who was
chosen by the same process as the Dalai Lama and acquacquiescenceeared , it was
the turning point that gave China encouragement and the indicator that they
could take it all and not have appreciable resistance in Tibet that was covertly
held by the Gelugpa.
Buddhism and the Science of Life by Alice Leighton Cleather, Section III
Tibetan Initiates is good reading here. Tsong-kha-pa was born at Koko-Nor and
was the Reformer, it is interesting to me that this was where the Chinese later
decided to test their nuclear and hydrogen weapons, maybe it wasn't by
chance. Page 71 has an interesting note that amy anye provided empeimpetusthe
Chinese. They removed the Spiritual Instructor to leave the earthly
Administrator whom they later crushed within Tibet. 
It wasn't just the inability of the Dalai Lama who, when recognizing
the nature of the atheistic communists by direct experience, fled to India with
what he could manage alone. It was the world itself, the times, the destitution
of nations after WWII, the Permanent Veto mechanism of the UN Sec. Council, the
public ignorance of the strategic importance of the top of the world and Tibet
and it's Religion and people, and many other factors. Today Tibet is now
tibet which has now a Chinese name and no longer is identified by China as Tibet
at all and recognized by the World as Formally Part of China whether any of us
like it or not. This type of thing will only be changed when and if China
disintegrates, that is historical empirical process among the Nations, one
observable example is the of thef the USSR and the Soviets which released thie
captive nations. Earlier examples can be seen in overall world history. New maps
do not show the former Tibet, Google Earth doesn't show the f
ormer Tibet, the Information Please Almanac does not index Tibet anymore as a
Nation .

>>>I believe He is fighting on a position he knows there is a
possibility to win something and abandoning the positions that are already
totally lost in order to avoid further pain.<<<

Well pragmatically he is in a final corner, any internal resistance will be
brutally crushed by China using brute force and other typical Communist
responses, there are some excellent Videos online that were made at risk of life
that people can view. I don't see any viable possioflity of the of then of
the Tibetan Diaspora to their historicl Homeland. Internal forcsceneainst China
will not change the scene there in my personal view.

>>>Fighting to preserve the culture by denying the independence, would
keep the inner strength save and a more gentle future events migth say whether
is possible or not to gain the lost independence. But if the culture is so
hardly attached now, it wont be much hope in the future for a folk that has been
disintegrated, to recover independence.<<<

Yes the Culturewhy Religion is being saved that is whay I reference "How
the Swans (Tibetan Religion, Tulku's, and Culture) Came to America" it
was a prediction and prophecy of long ago by Terma and Terton of Tibet. Tibet
has not died but has moved for a period that may not change in our lifetimes. In
Europe many Tibetan Gompa and Teachers have come, the same here in America and
other places in the world they have been well received by eager aspirants. The
Dalai Lama and his Organization has performed admirable and very commendable
works to implement the survival of the tortuouss of Tibetan Religion under
torturous dangerous conditions but have had wonderful results and success as
seen in present time the formally repressed sects were helped to eworldlargely
intact, they now teach wporld wide in a transformation process which reaches
maTibetan'sthan previously. Even if the Tibetans had not suppressed the
Dorge Shugden the Chinese would surely.ten around to then in due order. 

>>>Still I find so hard to believe, that he would turn his head away
from the suffering of his folk at least he is trying to do something to unite
them or to reward past deeds or to abandon way course of action that causes
disintegration.<<<

One must look at what he actually said publically to the world at large as
formal statements. 

1. He has stated he personally does not view himself as Tulku but only as
ordinary human being.
2. He recognizes that Tiseparateart of China and no longer apleadste Nation..
3. He pleades to the Chinese for internal autonomy and administrative rights
under Chinese rule as a subject state of ChiTibetan's> 
4. He has instructed Tibetans within Tibet not to attempt to use force against
the Chinese.

These statements are very instructive to anyone.

I have a view that people should nparticularlysp;Human Rights as an issue
particularily in the case of China in Tibet to help assuage the suffering of
those who remain in spite of the Imperial carry over of historical China by the
Communist Atheists. I can remember when Richard Nixon was President here in 
America the "Opening to China" become formal Policy of the Unites
States of America. After that many changes appeared, papers were writin by Think
Tanks here announcing that the Torch will be given to China for the next
Century, I thought they were all crazy then but it happened. The recent Olympics
in China were a culminating event. People simply have forgotten the
lesconqueredhistory and how empires suppressed conquerd populations old and new.
I am astonished how fast memories of evil disappear in the mind of man. 

The Soviets slaughtered 40,000 men, women and children in 1956,I helped a full
Colonel of the Regular Hungarian Army escape who was in utter terrified fear of
his life even after he wautteree Europe, countenancever shumanuch uter terror on
the contenance of a huamn being. I have seen the face of Evil and will never
forget who is Regardse by.

Regrads
John 

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: Raquel Rodríguez <raquel_rpj@yahoo.es> 
John
¿Do you then think this new ban impose by the DL over the Dorje Shudgen sect
is meant to reward other sects, from the oppression ever suffered by the first? 
I am just trying to understand why the DL has got to this position.
I understand, even if criticized by it´s own folk, that he just tries to
negotiate with the Chinese, even if accused of selling the country to the enemy,
at least to preserve the culture and costumes of his folk, which would be in
deed a jewel for the rest of the world and also the inner strength of Tibetan
people ¿what real possibility, without the help of international community,
would Tibetan folk have to recover their independence?, none I think. I believe
He is fighting on a position he knows there is a possibility to win something
and abandoning the positions that are already totally lost in order to avoid
further pain. 
Fighting to preserve the culture by denying the independence, would keep the
inner strength save and a more gentle future events migth say whether is
possible or not to gain the lost independence. But if the culture is so hardly
attached now, it wont be much hope in the future for a folk that has been
disintegrated, to recover independence.
I have only seen the information posted on this page about the Dorje Shudgen
conflict and his position in this, can not be understood, from my point of view,
at least there are historical facts I ignore. 
Still I find so hard to believe, that he would turn his head away from the
suffering of his folk at least he is trying to do something to unite them or to
reward past deeds or to abandon way course of action that causes disintegration.

Very Best Regards

Raquel

--- El mar, 2/12/08, Augoeides-222@comcast.net
<Augoeides-222@comcast.net> escribió:

De: Augoeides-222@comcast.net <Augoeides-222@comcast.net>
Asunto: Re: Theos-World Re: Some thoughts on the situation of Tibet
Para: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Fecha: martes, 2 diciembre, 2008 3:32

Richard,
Not intending to offend people who hold GDP is high regard. My personal view is
he had zero idea of real Tibetan History and carries the karma for grossly
misinforming a huge number of people that valued his erroneous renditions which
are equivelent to nothing more than Theosophical fantasy's where he never
knew of the oppressions of all the Tibetan sects by the Gelugpa such as is
written by David Reigle and many Historians? How did theosophical teachers rely
on bullcrap? GDP was never any expert on Tibet based on the quote you used. One
can make almost any assertion to ignorant uninformed masses of followers and the
general public and on a snap decision they will follow in suit as long as the
assertion seems plausible and reasonable and aligns with the group agreements,
but that doesn't make it right or correct. Just my personal views. There
were huge omissions by Theosophy back then as to events on the world stage.
Krakatoa seems to have been ignored
in the main. The history
of the British Troops in Tibet, the Russians, and others needs to be read from
real Historians and then compared to Theosophy views. I don't mean there
should not be "esoteric" views given in Theosophy but there is no
possibility that true real events that really happened can ever be ignored in
favor of unsubstantiated assertions that have no real basis and that when you
look and it ends in a blind alley where no records are obtainable the ground is
treacherous.
The Gelugpa committed gross overt acts against any in Tibet who
helvariantnBuddhist st views that includes also the Tashi Lama. Exterminating,
burning, making anathema Kagyu, Sakya , Jonompa, and the others to include the
Bon and also Shaminism. It was anything but a Happy time, tens of thousands of
Tibetans lived in fear of severe grave reprisals and even death for many
centuries not from a foreign power, but from the Gelugpsuccessionon. Their
Monastery's were burnt to the ground by Gelugpa. Their sacred Texts,
Sutra'sReligious Objects and History's were destroyed and burnt with a
zeal that equeleequeledquisit ion that HPB wrote so much about. Isn't it
curious that the so morale, ethical followers invent ratirationalization
saccomadate their need to accept bullcrap? At least there is one person that
accepts group karma for theitheir deeds of the past and is making efforts to
unburden the accumaccumulationt is the Dalai Lama Lamaelf in the current era.
Just my view. I adjure peopl
e to read the actual history of negotiations with the TibeTibetan' sing the
modern period it is hysterically rediredictulous the extreme and had me in tears
laughing at the mindless responses of the Gelugpa and the AdmAdministrativevG
overnmentat nearly drove any foreigner insane lol!!!

When is comes to real History I have found Theosophical versions skewed,
contorted, absent of real factual analysisin several cases. It is very "New
Age" in the context of la la land acceptance of pure baloney in certain
cases. I don't think Tibet had "abominable intestines", I think he
was trying to say "abominable internecine" .

Sorry if Isensibilitys sensabilitys here but I have a terrible habit if being
some what direct and blunt atapologizeo I apoligize in advance recognizing
certain people have needs to be assuaged by some people who may read this post.

Regards,
John 

------------ -- Original message ------------ -- 
From: "Richard Semock" <semockr@hotmail. com> 
I know it as moksha and consider myself on the path of pratyeka as 
one that does not like sudden changes but once freed from the wheel, 
dont expect to see me returning in selfless service to mankind or 
anything of the kind. Its strictly splitsville for me. Until then 
however I see a responsibility to ensure that Kali Yuga does not win 
in Tibet.

As for the Tashi Lama, GdeP, the expert theosophist and a big say in 
certain circles has this to say. His prescience in this matter as is 
his prediction of conditions on the moon turns out to be something of 
a turnabout according to what he says in the last paragraph:

"Is it known why the Dalai Lama drove the Tashi Lama out into India? 
He has had to fly to Mongolia and live there in seclusion and hide 
there. It seems a mystery. [Question asked in 1932] 

It is a mystery. I can tell you this: if the truth were known, there 
was no 'driving out' at all. Tibet has been doing its best in 
desperation to keep its frontiers inviolate against the hammering 
tactics of Western European powers trying to penetrate into the 
country; and they have resorted to the age-old Asiatic ways of 
diplomacy -- letting things appear which are not so, if you 
understand me. 

It is true that Tibet in the past has had abominable intestine 
struggles and wars; but that was mostly before the reformation of 
Tsong-kha-pa. After his time, which was the fourteenth century of our 
era, things have been quieter; and century after century has seen a 
happy people, light-hearted, loving learning, cultivating the things 
of the spirit and of the mind. 

There is a great future before the Tibetans. They are a 'young race,' 
evolutionally speaking. They are going to come forth in the future. 
But they won't be Tibetans then as the Tibetans now are."

Studies in Occult Philosophy by G. de Purucker 
Theosophical University Press Online Edition 

--- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, Augoeides-222@ ... wrote:
>
> Erica, 
> There is more than one spelling even in India and sometimes in 
country's in Europe they have their own version. Take your choice, 
Moksha is fine also it means final liberation. 
> 
> Regards,
> John
> 
> ------------ -- Original message ------------ -- 
> From: Erica Letzerich <eletzerich@ ...> 
> Maybe you mean Moksha?
> Erica
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: "Augoeides-222@ ..." <Augoeides-222@ ...>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 7:28:51 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Some thoughts on the situation of Tibet
> 
> Morten,
> The tradition of Moskva is ancient Hindu and long before there was 
any Russia or Moscow by more than 4000 years lol! I agree it strikes 
the mind as "Moscow" if one is not familiar. Moskva 
means "Liberation" . 
> Another interesting word from Hindu is "Svar" (Svarupa) it is
found 
in several forms, but in the stream of time it's permutative presence 
is also found in many prominent cultures. Such as:
> Caesar--- Rome
> Czar ----Russia
> Kaiser---Germany
> 
> Regards,
> John
> 
> ------------ -- Original message ------------ -- 
> From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@ stofanet.
dk> 
> LOL
> Thanks, that touched my heart.
> In my country the word "moskva" is the same as the capitol in 
Russia.
> I was flat on the floor laughing with tears and all.
> 
> But allright.
> Carry on.
> 
> M. Sufilight
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Augoeides-222@ comcast.net 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 6:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Some thoughts on the situation of Tibet
> 
> Richard,
> >>> The thought that in order for anyone to be freed from the
wheel 
> everyone must be freed from it according to the Mahayana
school.<<<
> 
> I don't know where you got that view. The Mahayana also speaks of 
Pratyeka Buddha's who individually obtain moskva by not becoming 
Bodhisattva. There are also I believe several other unique individual 
conditionals that also allow Moscva before all others. The Vow of the 
Bodhisattva "return" is standard in both lay and left home in 
Mahayana. Hinayana has view of each person is on the gradual path and 
they don't have the Bodhisattva Tradition as the sudden school of 
Mahayana. In the Theosophical teaching the "return" is ingrained for 
us and is described as the "Selfless Service to Mankind" that 
dictates our choice option as the ideal in the samsaric journey. The 
Mahayana is called Sudden School and the Greater Vehicle and the 
Hinayana is called the Gradual School and the lesser Vehicle.
> 
> I think people are forced to become apologists in many cases due to 
existential investment even when the reality is markedly removed from 
their cherished agreements. 
> 
> It seems everyone is in some form of denial in regards to the Tashi 
lama. My earlier point is made.
> 
> Regards,
> John
> 
> ------------ -- Original message ------------ -- 
> From: "Richard Semock" <semockr@hotmail. com> 
> The number of times that this job has been finished in all the 
rounds 
> and races is countless times, check it out in the akashic records 
if 
> you dont believe me. The Dalai Lama knows this and sees the cosmic 
> joke in it.
> 
> The thought that in order for anyone to be freed from the wheel 
> everyone must be freed from it according to the mahayana school. 
The 
> hinayana school on the other hand believes that we can free 
ourselves 
> from the rounds and if we return as a bodhisattva to save others it 
> is by our own choice.
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, Drpsionic@ . wrote:
> >
> > The Chinese would love nothing more than that surprise. It will 
> allow them 
> > to finish the job.
> > 
> > For all it's geographic area, Tibet is a land of no strategic or 
> economic 
> > interest to any Western power. India may feel differently but how 
> differently 
> > is a question.
> > 
> > Chuck the Heretic
> > 
> > 
> > In a message dated 11/28/2008 10:55:35 P.M. Central Standard 
Time, 
> > prmoliveira@ ... writes:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos-
> talk@yahoogroups. com) , 
> > Erica Letzerich <eletzerich@ ele> 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > Dear friends,
> > > 
> > > Its very sad the position Dalai Lama was placed by China and 
the 
> > horrible lies and accusations perpetuated by the chinese against 
> the 
> > Dalai Lama. China also keeps on with their claims about the 
Indian 
> > territory Arunachal Pradesh. The Chinese are pressing the Indian 
> > government to not recognize any valid government of Tibet in 
Exile. 
> > As the situation gets worst, China reinforces the tension with 
the 
> > claim that states of Arunachal Pradesh used to belong to Tibet 
and 
> as 
> > so belong to China.
> > > 
> > > We know the Chinese government has a strong campaign against 
> > anything related to Tibetan Buddhism and to Dalai Lama. Chineses 
> > working for the Chinese government are to be found everywhere in 
> the 
> > internet, and are the very first to make such kind of attacks. 
> China 
> > is becoming more agressive with its politics and if other nations 
> do 
> > not raise their voice against it, things promisses to get worst. 
> > Unfortunatly on 15 of November the British Chief Minister 
> recognized 
> > the Chinese sovereignty over Tibet. 
> > > 
> > > Recently the Dalai Lama made the following statements:
> > > 
> > > "My trust in the Chinese
> > > government has become thinner, thinner, thinner," 
> > > "Suppression
> > > is increasing and I cannot pretend that everything is OK."
> > > "I
> > > have to accept failure. Meantime among Tibetans in recent 
years, 
> our
> > > approach failed to bring positive change inside Tibet, so 
> criticism 
> > has
> > > also increased."
> > > 
> > > Recently I've joined a group in google, dedicated to 
> the "Buddha" 
> > boy, more out
> > > of curiosity to follow what is happening and what will be the 
> final
> > > result of it. Their web-site was hacked yesterday, and a person 
> made
> > > the following post: "Thank you to have allowed me to take
your 
> land 
> > and
> > > rape your women." I've also read uncountable articles
in 
> different 
> > blogs of anonymous persons defending China and making horrible 
> > accusations against the Dalai Lama and Tibet. The Chinese 
> aggressive 
> > approach is not only centered on Tibet but underground they also 
> > work against Tibetan Buddhism. I am afraid that pretty soon the 
> > Chinese claims over Indian Territories will also increase. 
> > > 
> > > Some leaders must assume a very strong position against China 
> > claims and policies. Otherwise we shall soon witness much worst 
> > things happening.
> > 
> > Dear Erica,
> > 
> > The genocide of Tibetan people perpetrated by Communist China for 
> > more than 50 years is a very clear evidence that for the Western 
> > liberal democracies, led by the EU and the US, "human
rights" is 
a 
> > nothing but a useful political slogan which serves to deflect 
> > attention from the fundamental fact that the 1.3 billion strong 
> > Chinese market is inded the central interest of the "freedom-
> loving" 
> > nations. 
> > 
> > Call me a skeptic if you want, but I am convinced that not even 
> > Barack Obama would have the guts (or the interest) to take on 
> China 
> > on the issue of Tibet. 
> > 
> > Western liberal democracies continue to have blood on their 
hands. 
> > Every time they renew their "Most favoured nation status"
with 
> China 
> > they do so on the background of torture, killing and raping of 
> many 
> > Tibetan Buddhist nuns, as well as of monks and activists. They 
> have 
> > condoned and continue to condone one of the most brutal political 
> > regimes in modern history. And they know it.
> > 
> > When the Dalai Lama officially announced that he had given up on 
> > negotiating with China he was just being honest. You can't 
> negotiate 
> > with people that do not take you seriously.
> > 
> > The Chinese government may soon have a surprise in their hands 
> when 
> > the more radical wings of the Tibetan movement call for full 
> > independence from China, instead of autonomy, and takes the 
> struggle 
> > to a new political level, in which nothing is excluded.
> > 
> > So far for Tibet and the Tibetans Kali Yuga has won. So far.
> > 
> > Pedro 
> > 

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