Theos-Talk Archives (October 2008 Message tt00948)

Dear friends,

It seems yahoo cannot read Greek letters. What a pitty.

Erica




________________________________
From: christinaleestemaker <christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 3:15:48 PM
Subject: Theos-World Re: COSMIC DOWNSIZING - Aryel Sanat


-
Martin , tegen een Griekse moet je niet Nederlands gaan praten!!! 

Als je goed het ledenarchief bekijkt weet je vaak wie waar vandaan 
komt
Groeten Christina

-- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, Erica Letzerich <eletzerich@ ...> 
wrote:
>
> Dear Martin,
> 
> You wrote:
> <Ps. welke plek zit jij ergens in Nederland; ben je, behalve e-
mailerig
> (schriftelijk) eigenlijk nog nergens tegengekomen. ..maar dat is
> misschien ook wel de bedoeling, hahaha.>
> 
> What I have to say is:
> 
> Çèéêü äßäáãìá: ¸íá óáëéãêÜñé åßíáé ðáíôñåíÝíï ìå Ýíáí
> êýêëùðá. Ðåèáßíåé ï êýêëùðáò êáé ôï óáëéãêÜñé óôåíï÷ùñÞèçêå ðïëý, 
áëëÜ
> ôåëéêÜ ôï îåðÝñáóå êáé ðáíôñåýôçêå êáé Üëëïí êýêëùðá. 
> 
> Ðïéï åßíáé ôï çèéêü äßäáãìá; 
> Ôï êáëü ôï óáëéãêÜñé îÝñåé êé Üëëï ìïíïìÜôç. hahahahahaha 
> 
> Erica
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Martin <Mvandertak@ ...>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:35:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: COSMIC DOWNSIZING - Aryel Sanat
> 
> Yow Katinka, trying or actually doing so? I mean a 100 years since 
it's founding should have been enough for 'trying'?
> I"ll see if I can sense some change by visiting Naarden and 
Amsterdam library ( as you may know I am from Amsterdam) and then 
I'll report my findings here.
> However, my findings are also still 'try outs', for the beast of 
vanity is still active in me...it may take a 100 lives to exhaust my 
trying :-), but I am asured it will be a white horse one of these 
days (probably when I have reached the state of St. Nicolas).
> 
> Ps. welke plek zit jij ergens in Nederland; ben je, behalve e-
mailerig (schriftelijk) eigenlijk nog nergens tegengekomen. ..maar dat 
is misschien ook wel de bedoeling, hahaha.
> 
> --- On Tue, 10/28/08, Katinka Hesselink <mail@...> wrote:
> From: Katinka Hesselink <mail@...>
> Subject: Theos-World Re: COSMIC DOWNSIZING - Aryel Sanat
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008, 10:57 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>             It has come to my attention yesterday that the Dutch TS 
is actually
> 
> trying to reform. Several committee's have been set up and the 
preview
> 
> of the proposals I heard were interesting. 
> 
> 
> 
> So aside from trying to change the way the international president 
is
> 
> elected, they are also attempting a more positive change. 
> 
> 
> 
> Katinka
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, MKR <mkr777@> wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > Thanks, Anton for your msg.
> 
> > 
> 
> > The root causes of the current situation, in my opinion, are:
> 
> > 
> 
> > 1. Attempt to defeat Radha Burnier by feeding inaccurate and 
possibly
> 
> > deliberate misinformation to members.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 2. Immediately following the election, the Ultra Secret plan to
> 
> > disenfranchise members with speedy radical changes to the rules.
> 
> > 
> 
> > These are very serious and fundamental issues affecting every
> 
> members and
> 
> > goes to the root issue of the trust one can place on the GC
> 
> members/leaders
> 
> > who are behind them. So, under the current climate, it is not 
going
> 
> to be
> 
> > simple to fix any real or imagined problems.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Also none of the GC members seem to recognise the most serious 
problem
> 
> > facing TS - precipitous decline in membership outside India.
> 
> > 
> 
> > All the tweaking of the rules will do nothing to fix this problem
> 
> since all
> 
> > sections are autonomous and do their own thing so long they do not
> 
> violate
> 
> > the three objects.
> 
> > 
> 
> > These are very simple issues that everyone can see and understand.
> 
> > 
> 
> > mkr
> 
> > On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 7:32 AM, Anton Rozman 
<anton_rozman@ ...>wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > >   Dear friends,
> 
> > >
> 
> > > I would like to make some comments because it seems that it is 
now
> 
> > > premuned that the Theosophical Society is and has been till now 
true
> 
> > > democracy, now endangered by group of people lead by John 
Algeo, what
> 
> > > is, from my point of view, completely twisted perspective of the
> 
> > > actual situation.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > In first place let me overview once again some basic statistics 
of
> 
> > > past TS President election results. Votes were received from 
12,993
> 
> > > members out of 20,879 members of the Society eligible to vote 
and
> 
> > > this number represents 62, 2 % of members eligible to vote and 
44, 8
> 
> > > % of all members of the Theosophical Society. John Algeo 
received
> 
> > > 4,323 votes or 20, 7 % and Radha Burnier 8,560 votes or 41% of 
all
> 
> > > members eligible to vote. Therefore none of the candidates 
received
> 
> > > majority support of the TS members eligible to vote, still less 
of
> 
> > > all members of the Society. The fact that the elected President 
does
> 
> > > not enjoy the majority support should represent a warning that 
in the
> 
> > > Society some necessary changes are eminent and that there is an
> 
> > > urgency to find such solutions which will find consensus of 
majority
> 
> > > of the Society's members.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > The proposal of the Amendments to the TS Rules and Regulations
> 
> > > certainly didn't lead to the consensus solution and only 
deepened the
> 
> > > polarization in the Society. More over, none of the poles or TS
> 
> > > officers have till now presented any concrete proposal or 
visible
> 
> > > sign of willingness to find some consensus solutions and foster 
the
> 
> > > democratization and transparency in the Society.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > Next, there seems that it is absent transparent fundamental 
direction
> 
> > > of the Society for the next years as it seems that the General
> 
> > > Council, as the Governing Body of the TS, will not discuss any
> 
> > > proposal and accept any policy and plan of work. At least we 
didn't
> 
> > > see any such proposal except that in John Algeo's election 
campaign
> 
> > > material.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > Further on, although it was clearly established that during the
> 
> > > election process several TS officers have behaved immorally,
> 
> > > violating TS Rules and Regulations and unethically conducted the
> 
> > > election campaign, what certainly damaged the Society, we 
didn't see
> 
> > > any statement of regret or apology to the membership, still 
less any
> 
> > > sign of willingness to offer a resignation.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > And finally, it is hoped that continuation of this 
unconstructive,
> 
> > > war-like situation will soon wake up those uniting forces and
> 
> > > numerous towards brotherhood oriented members to step forward 
and
> 
> > > launch the revitalization of the Society on the principle of
> 
> > > brotherhood and cooperation and transcend the quarrels which 
from
> 
> > > broader perspective of the needs of the Society and humanity at 
large
> 
> > > would look really silly if they were not sad.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > Warmest regards,
> 
> > > Anton
> 
> > >
> 
> > > p.s. I am adding excerpts from David R. Loy's "Perspectives on 
Evil
> 
> > > and Human Wickedness", Vol. 1 No. 2 Page 123, The Non-duality 
of Good
> 
> > > and Evil: Buddhist Reflections on the New Holy War (Copyright 
(c)
> 
> > > Wickedness Net 2003, http://www.wickedne ss.net.)
> 
> > >
> 
> > > If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people
> 
> > > somewhere, insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were 
necessary
> 
> > > only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But 
the
> 
> > > line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every 
human
> 
> > > being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? -
> 
> > > Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > In his autobiography Gandhi writes that "those who say that 
religion
> 
> > > has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion 
means" ?
> 
> > > religion is about how we should live, and politics is about 
deciding
> 
> > > together how we want to live. The main reason it has not been 
obvious
> 
> > > is because most modern societies have been careful to 
distinguish the
> 
> > > secular public sphere from the personal, private world of 
religious
> 
> > > belief. This has been essential for creating a multicultural 
climate
> 
> > > of religious tolerance, but at a price: such tolerance
> 
> > > effectively "displaces morality" by "asking you to inhabit your 
own
> 
> > > moral convictions loosely and be ready to withdraw from them 
whenever
> 
> > > pursuing them would impinge on the activities and choices of 
others."
> 
> > >
> 
> > > Our understanding of good and evil cannot be simply identified 
with
> 
> > > any religious worldview, but the two are intimately related.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > In other words, one of the main causes of evil in this world 
has been
> 
> > > human attempts to eradicate evil, or what has been viewed as 
evil. In
> 
> > > more Buddhist terms, much of the world's suffering has been a 
result
> 
> > > of our way of thinking about good and evil.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > You're either with us or against us.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > From a Buddhist perspective, there is something delusive about 
both
> 
> > > sides of this mirror image, and it is important to understand 
how
> 
> > > this black-and-white way of thinking brings more suffering, more
> 
> > > evil, into the world.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > This dualism of good-versus- evil is attractive because it is a 
simple
> 
> > > way of looking at the World.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > If the world is a battleground of good and evil forces, the 
evil that
> 
> > > is in the world must be fought and defeated by any means 
necessary.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > Nevertheless, it is a tragic fact that many religious people - 
or
> 
> > > many people who believe themselves to be religious - have 
objectified
> 
> > > and projected this struggle as a struggle in the external world
> 
> > > between the good (most of all, their own religion) and evil 
(other
> 
> > > religions).
> 
> > >
> 
> > > Perhaps the basic problem with this simplistic good-versus- 
evil way
> 
> > > of understanding conflict is that, because it tends to preclude
> 
> > > further thought, it keeps us from looking deeper, from trying to
> 
> > > discover causes. Once something has been identified as evil, 
there is
> 
> > > no more need to explain it; it is time to focus on fighting 
against
> 
> > > it.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > For Buddhism, evil, like everything else, has no essence or 
substance
> 
> > > of its own; it is a product of impermanent causes and 
conditions.
> 
> > > Buddhism emphasizes the concept of evil less than what it calls 
the
> 
> > > three roots of evil, or the three causes of evil, also known as 
the
> 
> > > three poisons: greed, ill will and delusion.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > Buddhism emphasizes ignorance and enlightenment because the 
basic
> 
> > > issue depends on our self-knowledge: do we really understand 
what
> 
> > > motivates us?
> 
> > >
> 
> > > One way to summarize the basic Buddhist teaching is that we 
suffer,
> 
> > > and cause others to suffer, because of greed, ill will and 
delusion.
> 
> > > Karma implies that when our actions are motivated by these 
roots of
> 
> > > evil, their negative consequences tend to rebound back upon us. 
That
> 
> > > is true for everyone. However, the Buddhist solution to 
suffering
> 
> > > does not involve requiting violence with violence, any more 
than it
> 
> > > involves responding to greed with greed, or responding to 
delusion
> 
> > > with delusion. ? the Buddhist solution involves breaking that 
cycle
> 
> > > by transforming greed into generosity, ill will into loving 
kindness,
> 
> > > and delusions into wisdom.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > Realizing our interdependence and mutual responsibility for each
> 
> > > other implies something more than just an insight or 
intellectual
> 
> > > awareness. When we try to live the way this interdependence 
implies,
> 
> > > it is called love. Such love is much more than a feeling; 
perhaps it
> 
> > > is best understood as a mode of being in the world. Buddhist 
texts
> 
> > > emphasize compassion, generosity, and loving-kindness, and they 
all
> 
> > > reflect this mode, being different aspects of love. Such love is
> 
> > > sometimes mocked as weak and ineffectual, yet it can be very
> 
> > > powerful, as Gandhi showed. It embodies a deep wisdom about how 
the
> 
> > > cycle of hatred and violence works, and about how that cycle 
can be
> 
> > > ended. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, but there 
is an
> 
> > > alternative. Twenty-five hundred years ago Shakyamuni Buddha 
said:
> 
> > > "He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me" - for 
those
> 
> > > who harbor such thoughts ill-will will never cease. "He abused 
me, he
> 
> > > beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me" - for those who do not 
harbor
> 
> > > such thoughts ill-will will cease.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > Because Buddhist enlightenment or "awakening" requires 
mindfulness of
> 
> > > our ways of thinking, Buddhism encourages us to be wary of
> 
> > > antithetical concepts ?
> 
> > >
> 
> > > Perhaps the most important way the interdependence of good and 
evil
> 
> > > shows itself is that we don't know what is good until we know 
what is
> 
> > > evil, and we don't feel we are good unless we are fighting 
against
> 
> > > that evil. We can feel comfortable and secure in our own 
goodness
> 
> > > only by attacking and destroying the evil outside us.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > Because the villains like to hurt people, it's okay to hurt 
them. ?
> 
> > > After all, they are evil and evil must be destroyed. What is 
this
> 
> > > kind of story really teaching us? That if you want to hurt 
someone,
> 
> > > it is important to demonize them first: in other words, to fit 
them
> 
> > > into your good-versus- evil script.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > When I manipulate the world to get what I want from it, the more
> 
> > > separate and alienated I feel from it, and the more separate 
others
> 
> > > feel from me, of course, when they have been manipulated; this 
mutual
> 
> > > distrust encourages both sides to manipulate more. On the other 
side,
> 
> > > the more I can relax and open up to the world, trusting it and
> 
> > > accepting the responsibility that involves responding to its 
needs -
> 
> > > which is what loving it means - the more I feel a part of it, 
at one
> 
> > > with other people; and the more others become inclined to trust 
and
> 
> > > open up to me.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. 
com>,
> 
> Erica
> 
> > > Letzerich <eletzerich@ >
> 
> > > wrote:
> 
> > > >
> 
> > > > COSMIC DOWNSIZING
> 
> > > > AN OPEN LETTER TO THE MEMBERS OF THE GENERAL COUNCIL OF THE
> 
> > > THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY
> 
> > > >
> 
> > > > To read the lettter of Aryel Sanat click the link below:
> 
> > > > <http://eletzerich. wordpress. com/2008/ 10/27/cosmic- 
downsizing- aryel-
> 
> > > sanat/>
> 
> > > >
> 
> > > > Erica
> 
> > > >
> 
> > > >
> 
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> > > >
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> > >
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> > 
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> > 
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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