Theos-Talk Archives (October 2008 Message tt00949)

Dutch looks more easier!







--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Erica Letzerich <eletzerich@...> 
wrote:
>
> Dear friends,
> 
> It seems yahoo cannot read Greek letters. What a pitty.
> 
> Erica
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: christinaleestemaker <christinaleestemaker@...>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 3:15:48 PM
> Subject: Theos-World Re: COSMIC DOWNSIZING - Aryel Sanat
> 
> 
> -
> Martin , tegen een Griekse moet je niet Nederlands gaan praten!!! 
> 
> Als je goed het ledenarchief bekijkt weet je vaak wie waar vandaan 
> komt
> Groeten Christina
> 
> -- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, Erica Letzerich 
<eletzerich@ ...> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Martin,
> > 
> > You wrote:
> > <Ps. welke plek zit jij ergens in Nederland; ben je, behalve e-
> mailerig
> > (schriftelijk) eigenlijk nog nergens tegengekomen. ..maar dat is
> > misschien ook wel de bedoeling, hahaha.>
> > 
> > What I have to say is:
> > 
> > Çèéêü äßäáãìá: ¸íá óáëéãêÜñé åßíáé ðáíôñåíÝíï ìå Ýíáí
> > êýêëùðá. Ðåèáßíåé ï êýêëùðáò êáé ôï óáëéãêÜñé óôåíï÷ùñÞèçêå ðïëý, 
> áëëÜ
> > ôåëéêÜ ôï îåðÝñáóå êáé ðáíôñåýôçêå êáé Üëëïí êýêëùðá. 
> > 
> > Ðïéï åßíáé ôï çèéêü äßäáãìá; 
> > Ôï êáëü ôï óáëéãêÜñé îÝñåé êé Üëëï ìïíïìÜôç. hahahahahaha 
> > 
> > Erica
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: Martin <Mvandertak@ ...>
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:35:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: COSMIC DOWNSIZING - Aryel Sanat
> > 
> > Yow Katinka, trying or actually doing so? I mean a 100 years 
since 
> it's founding should have been enough for 'trying'?
> > I"ll see if I can sense some change by visiting Naarden and 
> Amsterdam library ( as you may know I am from Amsterdam) and then 
> I'll report my findings here.
> > However, my findings are also still 'try outs', for the beast of 
> vanity is still active in me...it may take a 100 lives to exhaust 
my 
> trying :-), but I am asured it will be a white horse one of these 
> days (probably when I have reached the state of St. Nicolas).
> > 
> > Ps. welke plek zit jij ergens in Nederland; ben je, behalve e-
> mailerig (schriftelijk) eigenlijk nog nergens tegengekomen. ..maar 
dat 
> is misschien ook wel de bedoeling, hahaha.
> > 
> > --- On Tue, 10/28/08, Katinka Hesselink <mail@> wrote:
> > From: Katinka Hesselink <mail@>
> > Subject: Theos-World Re: COSMIC DOWNSIZING - Aryel Sanat
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> > Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008, 10:57 AM
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >             It has come to my attention yesterday that the Dutch 
TS 
> is actually
> > 
> > trying to reform. Several committee's have been set up and the 
> preview
> > 
> > of the proposals I heard were interesting. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > So aside from trying to change the way the international 
president 
> is
> > 
> > elected, they are also attempting a more positive change. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Katinka
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, MKR <mkr777@> wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > 
> > > Thanks, Anton for your msg.
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > The root causes of the current situation, in my opinion, are:
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > 1. Attempt to defeat Radha Burnier by feeding inaccurate and 
> possibly
> > 
> > > deliberate misinformation to members.
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > 2. Immediately following the election, the Ultra Secret plan to
> > 
> > > disenfranchise members with speedy radical changes to the rules.
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > These are very serious and fundamental issues affecting every
> > 
> > members and
> > 
> > > goes to the root issue of the trust one can place on the GC
> > 
> > members/leaders
> > 
> > > who are behind them. So, under the current climate, it is not 
> going
> > 
> > to be
> > 
> > > simple to fix any real or imagined problems.
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > Also none of the GC members seem to recognise the most serious 
> problem
> > 
> > > facing TS - precipitous decline in membership outside India.
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > All the tweaking of the rules will do nothing to fix this 
problem
> > 
> > since all
> > 
> > > sections are autonomous and do their own thing so long they do 
not
> > 
> > violate
> > 
> > > the three objects.
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > These are very simple issues that everyone can see and 
understand.
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > mkr
> > 
> > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 7:32 AM, Anton Rozman 
> <anton_rozman@ ...>wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > >   Dear friends,
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > I would like to make some comments because it seems that it 
is 
> now
> > 
> > > > premuned that the Theosophical Society is and has been till 
now 
> true
> > 
> > > > democracy, now endangered by group of people lead by John 
> Algeo, what
> > 
> > > > is, from my point of view, completely twisted perspective of 
the
> > 
> > > > actual situation.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > In first place let me overview once again some basic 
statistics 
> of
> > 
> > > > past TS President election results. Votes were received from 
> 12,993
> > 
> > > > members out of 20,879 members of the Society eligible to vote 
> and
> > 
> > > > this number represents 62, 2 % of members eligible to vote 
and 
> 44, 8
> > 
> > > > % of all members of the Theosophical Society. John Algeo 
> received
> > 
> > > > 4,323 votes or 20, 7 % and Radha Burnier 8,560 votes or 41% 
of 
> all
> > 
> > > > members eligible to vote. Therefore none of the candidates 
> received
> > 
> > > > majority support of the TS members eligible to vote, still 
less 
> of
> > 
> > > > all members of the Society. The fact that the elected 
President 
> does
> > 
> > > > not enjoy the majority support should represent a warning 
that 
> in the
> > 
> > > > Society some necessary changes are eminent and that there is 
an
> > 
> > > > urgency to find such solutions which will find consensus of 
> majority
> > 
> > > > of the Society's members.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > The proposal of the Amendments to the TS Rules and Regulations
> > 
> > > > certainly didn't lead to the consensus solution and only 
> deepened the
> > 
> > > > polarization in the Society. More over, none of the poles or 
TS
> > 
> > > > officers have till now presented any concrete proposal or 
> visible
> > 
> > > > sign of willingness to find some consensus solutions and 
foster 
> the
> > 
> > > > democratization and transparency in the Society.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > Next, there seems that it is absent transparent fundamental 
> direction
> > 
> > > > of the Society for the next years as it seems that the General
> > 
> > > > Council, as the Governing Body of the TS, will not discuss any
> > 
> > > > proposal and accept any policy and plan of work. At least we 
> didn't
> > 
> > > > see any such proposal except that in John Algeo's election 
> campaign
> > 
> > > > material.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > Further on, although it was clearly established that during 
the
> > 
> > > > election process several TS officers have behaved immorally,
> > 
> > > > violating TS Rules and Regulations and unethically conducted 
the
> > 
> > > > election campaign, what certainly damaged the Society, we 
> didn't see
> > 
> > > > any statement of regret or apology to the membership, still 
> less any
> > 
> > > > sign of willingness to offer a resignation.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > And finally, it is hoped that continuation of this 
> unconstructive,
> > 
> > > > war-like situation will soon wake up those uniting forces and
> > 
> > > > numerous towards brotherhood oriented members to step forward 
> and
> > 
> > > > launch the revitalization of the Society on the principle of
> > 
> > > > brotherhood and cooperation and transcend the quarrels which 
> from
> > 
> > > > broader perspective of the needs of the Society and humanity 
at 
> large
> > 
> > > > would look really silly if they were not sad.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > Warmest regards,
> > 
> > > > Anton
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > p.s. I am adding excerpts from David R. Loy's "Perspectives 
on 
> Evil
> > 
> > > > and Human Wickedness", Vol. 1 No. 2 Page 123, The Non-duality 
> of Good
> > 
> > > > and Evil: Buddhist Reflections on the New Holy War (Copyright 
> (c)
> > 
> > > > Wickedness Net 2003, http://www.wickedne ss.net.)
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people
> > 
> > > > somewhere, insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were 
> necessary
> > 
> > > > only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. 
But 
> the
> > 
> > > > line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every 
> human
> > 
> > > > being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own 
heart? -
> > 
> > > > Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > In his autobiography Gandhi writes that "those who say that 
> religion
> > 
> > > > has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion 
> means" ?
> > 
> > > > religion is about how we should live, and politics is about 
> deciding
> > 
> > > > together how we want to live. The main reason it has not been 
> obvious
> > 
> > > > is because most modern societies have been careful to 
> distinguish the
> > 
> > > > secular public sphere from the personal, private world of 
> religious
> > 
> > > > belief. This has been essential for creating a multicultural 
> climate
> > 
> > > > of religious tolerance, but at a price: such tolerance
> > 
> > > > effectively "displaces morality" by "asking you to inhabit 
your 
> own
> > 
> > > > moral convictions loosely and be ready to withdraw from them 
> whenever
> > 
> > > > pursuing them would impinge on the activities and choices of 
> others."
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > Our understanding of good and evil cannot be simply 
identified 
> with
> > 
> > > > any religious worldview, but the two are intimately related.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > In other words, one of the main causes of evil in this world 
> has been
> > 
> > > > human attempts to eradicate evil, or what has been viewed as 
> evil. In
> > 
> > > > more Buddhist terms, much of the world's suffering has been a 
> result
> > 
> > > > of our way of thinking about good and evil.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > You're either with us or against us.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > From a Buddhist perspective, there is something delusive 
about 
> both
> > 
> > > > sides of this mirror image, and it is important to understand 
> how
> > 
> > > > this black-and-white way of thinking brings more suffering, 
more
> > 
> > > > evil, into the world.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > This dualism of good-versus- evil is attractive because it is 
a 
> simple
> > 
> > > > way of looking at the World.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > If the world is a battleground of good and evil forces, the 
> evil that
> > 
> > > > is in the world must be fought and defeated by any means 
> necessary.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > Nevertheless, it is a tragic fact that many religious people 
- 
> or
> > 
> > > > many people who believe themselves to be religious - have 
> objectified
> > 
> > > > and projected this struggle as a struggle in the external 
world
> > 
> > > > between the good (most of all, their own religion) and evil 
> (other
> > 
> > > > religions).
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > Perhaps the basic problem with this simplistic good-versus- 
> evil way
> > 
> > > > of understanding conflict is that, because it tends to 
preclude
> > 
> > > > further thought, it keeps us from looking deeper, from trying 
to
> > 
> > > > discover causes. Once something has been identified as evil, 
> there is
> > 
> > > > no more need to explain it; it is time to focus on fighting 
> against
> > 
> > > > it.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > For Buddhism, evil, like everything else, has no essence or 
> substance
> > 
> > > > of its own; it is a product of impermanent causes and 
> conditions.
> > 
> > > > Buddhism emphasizes the concept of evil less than what it 
calls 
> the
> > 
> > > > three roots of evil, or the three causes of evil, also known 
as 
> the
> > 
> > > > three poisons: greed, ill will and delusion.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > Buddhism emphasizes ignorance and enlightenment because the 
> basic
> > 
> > > > issue depends on our self-knowledge: do we really understand 
> what
> > 
> > > > motivates us?
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > One way to summarize the basic Buddhist teaching is that we 
> suffer,
> > 
> > > > and cause others to suffer, because of greed, ill will and 
> delusion.
> > 
> > > > Karma implies that when our actions are motivated by these 
> roots of
> > 
> > > > evil, their negative consequences tend to rebound back upon 
us. 
> That
> > 
> > > > is true for everyone. However, the Buddhist solution to 
> suffering
> > 
> > > > does not involve requiting violence with violence, any more 
> than it
> > 
> > > > involves responding to greed with greed, or responding to 
> delusion
> > 
> > > > with delusion. ? the Buddhist solution involves breaking that 
> cycle
> > 
> > > > by transforming greed into generosity, ill will into loving 
> kindness,
> > 
> > > > and delusions into wisdom.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > Realizing our interdependence and mutual responsibility for 
each
> > 
> > > > other implies something more than just an insight or 
> intellectual
> > 
> > > > awareness. When we try to live the way this interdependence 
> implies,
> > 
> > > > it is called love. Such love is much more than a feeling; 
> perhaps it
> > 
> > > > is best understood as a mode of being in the world. Buddhist 
> texts
> > 
> > > > emphasize compassion, generosity, and loving-kindness, and 
they 
> all
> > 
> > > > reflect this mode, being different aspects of love. Such love 
is
> > 
> > > > sometimes mocked as weak and ineffectual, yet it can be very
> > 
> > > > powerful, as Gandhi showed. It embodies a deep wisdom about 
how 
> the
> > 
> > > > cycle of hatred and violence works, and about how that cycle 
> can be
> > 
> > > > ended. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, but 
there 
> is an
> > 
> > > > alternative. Twenty-five hundred years ago Shakyamuni Buddha 
> said:
> > 
> > > > "He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me" - 
for 
> those
> > 
> > > > who harbor such thoughts ill-will will never cease. "He 
abused 
> me, he
> > 
> > > > beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me" - for those who do not 
> harbor
> > 
> > > > such thoughts ill-will will cease.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > Because Buddhist enlightenment or "awakening" requires 
> mindfulness of
> > 
> > > > our ways of thinking, Buddhism encourages us to be wary of
> > 
> > > > antithetical concepts ?
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > Perhaps the most important way the interdependence of good 
and 
> evil
> > 
> > > > shows itself is that we don't know what is good until we know 
> what is
> > 
> > > > evil, and we don't feel we are good unless we are fighting 
> against
> > 
> > > > that evil. We can feel comfortable and secure in our own 
> goodness
> > 
> > > > only by attacking and destroying the evil outside us.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > Because the villains like to hurt people, it's okay to hurt 
> them. ?
> > 
> > > > After all, they are evil and evil must be destroyed. What is 
> this
> > 
> > > > kind of story really teaching us? That if you want to hurt 
> someone,
> > 
> > > > it is important to demonize them first: in other words, to 
fit 
> them
> > 
> > > > into your good-versus- evil script.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > When I manipulate the world to get what I want from it, the 
more
> > 
> > > > separate and alienated I feel from it, and the more separate 
> others
> > 
> > > > feel from me, of course, when they have been manipulated; 
this 
> mutual
> > 
> > > > distrust encourages both sides to manipulate more. On the 
other 
> side,
> > 
> > > > the more I can relax and open up to the world, trusting it and
> > 
> > > > accepting the responsibility that involves responding to its 
> needs -
> > 
> > > > which is what loving it means - the more I feel a part of it, 
> at one
> > 
> > > > with other people; and the more others become inclined to 
trust 
> and
> > 
> > > > open up to me.
> > 
> > > >
> > 
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 
40yahoogroups. 
> com>,
> > 
> > Erica
> > 
> > > > Letzerich <eletzerich@ >
> > 
> > > > wrote:
> > 
> > > > >
> > 
> > > > > COSMIC DOWNSIZING
> > 
> > > > > AN OPEN LETTER TO THE MEMBERS OF THE GENERAL COUNCIL OF THE
> > 
> > > > THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY
> > 
> > > > >
> > 
> > > > > To read the lettter of Aryel Sanat click the link below:
> > 
> > > > > <http://eletzerich. wordpress. com/2008/ 10/27/cosmic- 
> downsizing- aryel-
> > 
> > > > sanat/>
> > 
> > > > >
> > 
> > > > > Erica
> > 
> > > > >
> > 
> > > > >
> > 
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > > > >
> > 
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> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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> > 
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
>     
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>