Theos-Talk Archives (October 2008 Message tt00750)

Dear Ramadoss,

I certainly greatly appreciate endeavors of all who are making this 
open discussion on issues - which would otherwise remain secret - 
possible and think that it is crucial for the future of the TS. I 
also fully agree that every hour, every day represent an opportunity 
for the TS officers to establish fraternal communication with the 
members regarding various initiatives and future work of the Society 
which they are till now missing. But I think that sharp language is 
contra productive and that we have to create to certain degree safe 
and constructive environment for everyone if we would like to see 
them participate.

Warmest regards,
Anton


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MKR <mkr777@...> wrote:
>
> Anton:
> 
> Thanks for your very thoughtful and quick response.
> 
> The current discussions started with the continued attempt to 
present Radha
> as sick and should not be elected even after contradicting 
professional
> evidence was there. We were lucky that Internet was there to keep us
> informed real time. Your website was of immense help to all of us.
> 
> The radical rule changes proposed were so far reaching and illegal 
that I
> have never seen anything like this in the last 50 years. Issues 
dealing with
> members' fundamental voting rights are such serious matters that 
one has to
> get the members behind the changes before moving. That is the only 
way to do
> it right.
> 
> Just imagine what would have happened if Internet was not there and 
changes
> went thru and effective. We will have a handful of GC members 
controlling
> everything and eventually President made a puppet elected and 
controlled by
> them. That would be the beginning of the end of TS as we know it.
> 
> As a consequence of what has happened, many members have a very low 
level of
> trust in the leaders. (What are they upto next?) It is upto them to 
rebuild
> the trust by their actions and this cannot be done overnight.
> 
> All the leaders are silent. They should come out and talk to the 
members
> directly. It can be done quickly, easily and at no cost by using 
this
> maillist which has world-wide circulation. As I have pointed out 
several
> times earlier, over the last decade, I have seen only two general
> secretaries(GC members) in this forum. Why? I hope they will wake 
up and use
> this free facility at a time of budget crunch and get things 
moving. It is
> their choice.
> 
> Regards
> 
> mkr
> 
> THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH
> 
> <http://www.teozofija.info/Teozofsko_gibanje/Healing_Time.htm>
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:23 AM, Anton Rozman 
<anton_rozman@...>wrote:
> 
> >   Dear Ramadoss,
> >
> > One can not to not agree with most of your points.
> >
> > As said, campaign was indecent but both ways. The move of 
amendments
> > was secret but it was made as in previous cases. Some proposed and
> > some already accepted changes ruin the subtle balance of the
> > Constitution and seriously damage its democratic structure.
> >
> > But, playing the game with the privilege that opponent's cards are
> > open to me while mine are hidden, and using this privilege to beat
> > the opponent to the ground is at least unfair.
> >
> > If we not accept that we all are moved by good intentions and that
> > troubles are due to our ignorance and self-interest then it is 
better
> > that we close the barrack and go on Pacific island.
> >
> > There can not be winner in such polarization, we are all losing,
> > above all the Theosophical Society.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Anton
> >
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, 
MKR
> > <mkr777@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Couple of points. During John Coats election, it was three way -
-
> > three well
> > > known candidates. I have no problem in the candidates beating 
their
> > own
> > > drums as much as they want to. It is their birthright.
> > >
> > > The basic problem in the current election was the attempt to 
defeat
> > a
> > > candidate by providing incomplete and inaccurate information 
and it
> > is an
> > > insult to the intelligence of the ordinary members. In addition,
> > the secret
> > > attempt by a handful of people to change the rules quickly 
before
> > any
> > > members could find out simply lacks trust in the judgement of 
the
> > members.
> > > Members should have been consulted. In addition, they should 
have
> > known
> > > what they are trying to do was also illegal; disenfranchisement 
of
> > members
> > > without their consent.
> > >
> > > Any politician or attorney who knows something about the
> > corporate/nonprofit
> > > management/legal/political issues would have raised a red flag
> > before the
> > > move was made. Simple reading of the rules using a dictionary 
and
> > trying to
> > > interpret and modify does not cut it. If it is so simple, the 
court
> > judges
> > > would all be English majors and the supreme court would be 
filled
> > with
> > > linguistic professors to interpret the written legal material.
> > Someone
> > > should have thought about these things.
> > >
> > > I feel there is going to be some unintended consequences as a
> > result of what
> > > happened and none of us can foresee what they are. Let us wait 
and
> > see.
> > >
> > > mkr
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 10:24 PM, Anton Rozman
> > <anton_rozman@>wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Eldon,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you very much for the article. It was interesting diving
> > into
> > > > the American President's election system. It would be probably
> > very
> > > > interesting to experiment with the idea to have in the TS an
> > > > electoral college consisting out of individual lodges (as
> > fundamental
> > > > units) as districts.
> > > >
> > > > I think that major defect in the American system is that 
election
> > > > campaign is governed by money and that an independent 
candidate
> > has
> > > > no chance against parties' candidates which are supported by 
big
> > > > money. So, the great problem is how to give equal chance to 
all
> > > > candidates and reduce to the minimum influence of corporate
> > financial
> > > > interests.
> > > >
> > > > While in American system the outcome depends of the financial
> > > > background in the TS it seems that depends of the tradition.
> > Namely,
> > > > in the past it was quite usual to have only one candidate
> > running. In
> > > > instances when we had two candidates, as in last elections, 
and
> > the
> > > > Society was really confronted with the democratic process and 
its
> > own
> > > > Rules and Regulations it came to the surface all its 
incapability
> > do
> > > > decently cope with them.
> > > >
> > > > It seems that now all officers would like to let us forget 
that
> > past
> > > > elections were actually won by "NO THANKS" candidate. There 
are
> > > > voices who try to convince us that the TS is in fact 
democratic
> > > > organization although its Rules and Regulations are constantly
> > > > misinterpreted and violated in that or another way. They try 
to
> > > > convince us that we have to forget the indecent election 
process
> > > > which revealed the actual shameful state of affairs and go 
back to
> > > > the business and sweep all under the carpet.
> > > >
> > > > Well, probably it will not work that way. We have to change 
our
> > > > behavior, we have to collaborate and find solutions for 
change and
> > > > stop scapegoating.
> > > >
> > > > Warmest regards,
> > > > Anton
> > > >
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%
40yahoogroups.com><theos-talk%
> > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > MKR
> > > > <mkr777@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks Eldon.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is the timing (soon after election defeat), super 
secrecy and
> > > > speed with
> > > > > which the Quartet wanted to revamp everything is seen as 
trying
> > > > pull a fast
> > > > > one on the members.
> > > > >
> > > > > I wish if the whole range of problems were thrown open to 
member
> > > > and got the
> > > > > members behind them would have had a good chance of some 
reform.
> > > > Today, in
> > > > > my opinion, many members have lost their trust in the 
leaders
> > and
> > > > until that
> > > > > is rebuilt (which cannot be done overnight), we cannot 
expect
> > > > members'
> > > > > support for any change. This is because of the continuing
> > secrecy
> > > > and non
> > > > > transparency of the process of the GC makes one wonder what
> > else is
> > > > cooking
> > > > > behind closed doors.
> > > > >
> > > > > mkr
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 10/21/08, Eldon B Tucker <write001@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some of the ongoing debate about the T.S. election and
> > proposals
> > > > > > subsequently circulating made me think of an article I 
read in
> > > > > > DISCOVER MAGAZINE many years ago. It discusses the 
mathematics
> > > > behind
> > > > > > and the reasons for the electoral college in the U.S.
> > presidential
> > > > > > elections. It makes a good case that such a system 
preserves
> > the
> > > > > > rights of minority groups much better than a direct 
national
> > > > election
> > > > > > would.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are many copies of the article on the internet. One
> > link to
> > > > it I
> > > > > > found has some interesting discussion attached. It's worth
> > > > reading and
> > > > > > may contribute some ideas to the current discussion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1234409/posts
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -- Eldon
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>