Theos-Talk Archives (October 2008 Message tt00755)

Anton:

Your point is well taken.

>From what has been going on, the member's trust level has gone down. So it
is up to the GC members and others in power (directly or indirectly) to come
down to the members' level and earn their trust by their transparent
actions. And this is going to take time.

Until the trust is restored, many are going to be skeptical and be very
vigilant because we do not know what to expect next in the absence of total
transparency. Until transparency issue is taken up seriously nothing is
going to change easily.

As your know, Internet is one place we are able to interact with each other
as equals without distinction of any kind and it takes time for "newbees" -
young and old - to get settled. Also because many of us here have no axe to
grind, in terms of position or power or favors from those in power, we are
able to speak our opinion freely and that is what is going to help TS in the
long run.

Regards

Ramadoss

Regards

Ramadoss



On 10/22/08, Anton Rozman <anton_rozman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>   Dear Ramadoss,
>
> I certainly greatly appreciate endeavors of all who are making this
> open discussion on issues - which would otherwise remain secret -
> possible and think that it is crucial for the future of the TS. I
> also fully agree that every hour, every day represent an opportunity
> for the TS officers to establish fraternal communication with the
> members regarding various initiatives and future work of the Society
> which they are till now missing. But I think that sharp language is
> contra productive and that we have to create to certain degree safe
> and constructive environment for everyone if we would like to see
> them participate.
>
> Warmest regards,
> Anton
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, MKR
> <mkr777@...> wrote:
> >
> > Anton:
> >
> > Thanks for your very thoughtful and quick response.
> >
> > The current discussions started with the continued attempt to
> present Radha
> > as sick and should not be elected even after contradicting
> professional
> > evidence was there. We were lucky that Internet was there to keep us
> > informed real time. Your website was of immense help to all of us.
> >
> > The radical rule changes proposed were so far reaching and illegal
> that I
> > have never seen anything like this in the last 50 years. Issues
> dealing with
> > members' fundamental voting rights are such serious matters that
> one has to
> > get the members behind the changes before moving. That is the only
> way to do
> > it right.
> >
> > Just imagine what would have happened if Internet was not there and
> changes
> > went thru and effective. We will have a handful of GC members
> controlling
> > everything and eventually President made a puppet elected and
> controlled by
> > them. That would be the beginning of the end of TS as we know it.
> >
> > As a consequence of what has happened, many members have a very low
> level of
> > trust in the leaders. (What are they upto next?) It is upto them to
> rebuild
> > the trust by their actions and this cannot be done overnight.
> >
> > All the leaders are silent. They should come out and talk to the
> members
> > directly. It can be done quickly, easily and at no cost by using
> this
> > maillist which has world-wide circulation. As I have pointed out
> several
> > times earlier, over the last decade, I have seen only two general
> > secretaries(GC members) in this forum. Why? I hope they will wake
> up and use
> > this free facility at a time of budget crunch and get things
> moving. It is
> > their choice.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > mkr
> >
> > THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH
> >
> > <http://www.teozofija.info/Teozofsko_gibanje/Healing_Time.htm>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:23 AM, Anton Rozman
> <anton_rozman@...>wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Ramadoss,
> > >
> > > One can not to not agree with most of your points.
> > >
> > > As said, campaign was indecent but both ways. The move of
> amendments
> > > was secret but it was made as in previous cases. Some proposed and
> > > some already accepted changes ruin the subtle balance of the
> > > Constitution and seriously damage its democratic structure.
> > >
> > > But, playing the game with the privilege that opponent's cards are
> > > open to me while mine are hidden, and using this privilege to beat
> > > the opponent to the ground is at least unfair.
> > >
> > > If we not accept that we all are moved by good intentions and that
> > > troubles are due to our ignorance and self-interest then it is
> better
> > > that we close the barrack and go on Pacific island.
> > >
> > > There can not be winner in such polarization, we are all losing,
> > > above all the Theosophical Society.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Anton
> > >
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com><theos-talk%
> 40yahoogroups.com>,
> MKR
> > > <mkr777@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Couple of points. During John Coats election, it was three way -
> -
> > > three well
> > > > known candidates. I have no problem in the candidates beating
> their
> > > own
> > > > drums as much as they want to. It is their birthright.
> > > >
> > > > The basic problem in the current election was the attempt to
> defeat
> > > a
> > > > candidate by providing incomplete and inaccurate information
> and it
> > > is an
> > > > insult to the intelligence of the ordinary members. In addition,
> > > the secret
> > > > attempt by a handful of people to change the rules quickly
> before
> > > any
> > > > members could find out simply lacks trust in the judgement of
> the
> > > members.
> > > > Members should have been consulted. In addition, they should
> have
> > > known
> > > > what they are trying to do was also illegal; disenfranchisement
> of
> > > members
> > > > without their consent.
> > > >
> > > > Any politician or attorney who knows something about the
> > > corporate/nonprofit
> > > > management/legal/political issues would have raised a red flag
> > > before the
> > > > move was made. Simple reading of the rules using a dictionary
> and
> > > trying to
> > > > interpret and modify does not cut it. If it is so simple, the
> court
> > > judges
> > > > would all be English majors and the supreme court would be
> filled
> > > with
> > > > linguistic professors to interpret the written legal material.
> > > Someone
> > > > should have thought about these things.
> > > >
> > > > I feel there is going to be some unintended consequences as a
> > > result of what
> > > > happened and none of us can foresee what they are. Let us wait
> and
> > > see.
> > > >
> > > > mkr
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 10:24 PM, Anton Rozman
> > > <anton_rozman@>wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Eldon,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you very much for the article. It was interesting diving
> > > into
> > > > > the American President's election system. It would be probably
> > > very
> > > > > interesting to experiment with the idea to have in the TS an
> > > > > electoral college consisting out of individual lodges (as
> > > fundamental
> > > > > units) as districts.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that major defect in the American system is that
> election
> > > > > campaign is governed by money and that an independent
> candidate
> > > has
> > > > > no chance against parties' candidates which are supported by
> big
> > > > > money. So, the great problem is how to give equal chance to
> all
> > > > > candidates and reduce to the minimum influence of corporate
> > > financial
> > > > > interests.
> > > > >
> > > > > While in American system the outcome depends of the financial
> > > > > background in the TS it seems that depends of the tradition.
> > > Namely,
> > > > > in the past it was quite usual to have only one candidate
> > > running. In
> > > > > instances when we had two candidates, as in last elections,
> and
> > > the
> > > > > Society was really confronted with the democratic process and
> its
> > > own
> > > > > Rules and Regulations it came to the surface all its
> incapability
> > > do
> > > > > decently cope with them.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems that now all officers would like to let us forget
> that
> > > past
> > > > > elections were actually won by "NO THANKS" candidate. There
> are
> > > > > voices who try to convince us that the TS is in fact
> democratic
> > > > > organization although its Rules and Regulations are constantly
> > > > > misinterpreted and violated in that or another way. They try
> to
> > > > > convince us that we have to forget the indecent election
> process
> > > > > which revealed the actual shameful state of affairs and go
> back to
> > > > > the business and sweep all under the carpet.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, probably it will not work that way. We have to change
> our
> > > > > behavior, we have to collaborate and find solutions for
> change and
> > > > > stop scapegoating.
> > > > >
> > > > > Warmest regards,
> > > > > Anton
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com><theos-talk%
> 40yahoogroups.com><theos-talk%
> > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > MKR
> > > > > <mkr777@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Eldon.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is the timing (soon after election defeat), super
> secrecy and
> > > > > speed with
> > > > > > which the Quartet wanted to revamp everything is seen as
> trying
> > > > > pull a fast
> > > > > > one on the members.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wish if the whole range of problems were thrown open to
> member
> > > > > and got the
> > > > > > members behind them would have had a good chance of some
> reform.
> > > > > Today, in
> > > > > > my opinion, many members have lost their trust in the
> leaders
> > > and
> > > > > until that
> > > > > > is rebuilt (which cannot be done overnight), we cannot
> expect
> > > > > members'
> > > > > > support for any change. This is because of the continuing
> > > secrecy
> > > > > and non
> > > > > > transparency of the process of the GC makes one wonder what
> > > else is
> > > > > cooking
> > > > > > behind closed doors.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > mkr
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 10/21/08, Eldon B Tucker <write001@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Some of the ongoing debate about the T.S. election and
> > > proposals
> > > > > > > subsequently circulating made me think of an article I
> read in
> > > > > > > DISCOVER MAGAZINE many years ago. It discusses the
> mathematics
> > > > > behind
> > > > > > > and the reasons for the electoral college in the U.S.
> > > presidential
> > > > > > > elections. It makes a good case that such a system
> preserves
> > > the
> > > > > > > rights of minority groups much better than a direct
> national
> > > > > election
> > > > > > > would.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are many copies of the article on the internet. One
> > > link to
> > > > > it I
> > > > > > > found has some interesting discussion attached. It's worth
> > > > > reading and
> > > > > > > may contribute some ideas to the current discussion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1234409/posts
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -- Eldon
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> 
>


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