Theos-Talk Archives (May 2008 Message tt00472)

Dear Ramadoss,

>If only this question was openly discussed one year ago, then by now 
the issue would have been settled. But the way it got started and the 
way it was communicated to the members and the continued silence of 
the leaders, has complicated the election.<

Yes, the fate of the Theosophical Society is at stake and the 
officers should be able to settle this question in advance for the 
sake of common interest. 

But even now when the Rules and Regulations were violated and the 
election process compromised we didn't see any reaction. Why the 
meeting of the Executive Committee wasn't called to discuss and 
settle the problem? Why the President is not acting? 

Anton


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MKR <mkr777@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Anton:
> 
> I agree with your conclusion.
> 
> If only this question was openly discussed one year ago, then by 
now the
> issue would have been settled. But the way it got started and the 
way it was
> communicated to the members and the continued silence of the 
leaders, has
> complicated the election.
> 
> Also, the organizational mindset all over the world is also a 
contributing
> factor. A more open multi-way communication is what is needed. Even 
now,
> with all the visions of future, it still appears to be one-way -- 
my way or
> highway -- communication. The western countries had an opportunity 
for over
> a decade to improve multi-way communication and it has not happened.
> 
> Just watch what has happened in the last couple of months. We have 
been
> discussing freely on this maillist. Do you know of anyone in the 
national or
> international leadership or administrative positions who has shown 
up. Why?
> I also have a distinctive feeling that there a subtle pressure being
> exercised at the national level in discouraging organizational and
> adminstrative people from showing up here even though they are 
eagerly
> lurking and reading the traffic. I suspect this has been going on 
for years.
> 
> 
> Even in the early days, when the first independent maillist was
> established, I learnt about it thru the grapevine,  when I 
contacted the
> national outfit and said send me info on your maillist, was told 
they have
> none. I could have been told there is an independent maillist. 
Since I did
> not ask the right question, I did not get the answer. This is what 
lawyers
> do when in the middle of a law suit. If you do not ask the right 
question,
> they will not volunteer right answer -- an adversarial mode.
> 
> Unless and until there is a transformation of the mindset, it is 
going to be
> difficult to spread the theosophical message in today's world.
> 
> mkr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/12/08, Anton Rozman <anton_rozman@...> wrote:
> >
> >   Dear Ramadoss,
> >
> > >If there was any question about the certificates or the 
competency
> > of the doctors, don't you think we would have heard long ago from 
the
> > Nominators of John Algeo who were alleged poor mental and physical
> > health of Radha Burnier? Just the long silence speaks very much
> > louder than any amount of words. We are all grown up and see what 
is
> > going on.<
> >
> > I certainly don't bring the competency of the doctors under the
> > question but just saying that they expressed their subjective
> > opinion, that an Occupational Medicine specialist would probably
> > treat the situation differently, that probably some other doctor 
in
> > America or Europe would possibly have different opinion too, that 
we
> > can not consider any opinion of any doctor as the only possible 
one
> > and the only objective.
> >
> > But my main point is that the only person who should evaluate the
> > situation and act in the best interest of the Theosophical 
Society is
> > the President herself.
> >
> > Anton
> >
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, 
MKR
> > <mkr777@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have again looked at the medical certificates issued by the 
two
> > > physicians. Both are Internists - doctors trained in diagnosing 
and
> > treating
> > > adults.
> > >
> > > In the USA, even from childhood, many do periodically get 
fitness
> > > certificates from a doctor. This can be obtained from Children
> > Doctors,
> > > Family Doctors, Internists or anyone who is licensed to practice
> > medicine.
> > >
> > > For example, even children need to get a certificate that they 
are
> > > physically fit. It does not detail what tests are done, what the
> > results and
> > > what interpretations are. It just says whether the person is 
fit or
> > not or
> > > even partially fit -- limiting to certain activities.
> > >
> > > In the light of the above, I do not have any ground to question 
the
> > > professional judgement of the two doctors. In addition, we have 
to
> > note that
> > > first one is Radha Burnier's doctor for ten years and second 
one is
> > the
> > > Principal (President) of the Medical School (College) in 
addition
> > to being
> > > he head of the Dept of Medicine.
> > >
> > > If there was any question about the certificates or the 
competency
> > of the
> > > doctors, don't you think we would have heard long ago from the
> > Nominators of
> > > John Algeo who were alleged poor mental and physical health of 
Radha
> > > Burnier? Just the long silence speaks very much louder than any
> > amount
> > > of words. We are all grown up and see what is going on.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > mkr
> > > THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH
> > >
> > > On 5/11/08, Anton Rozman <anton_rozman@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Let me start with two presumptions; firstly, there isn't 
present
> > in
> > > > the Society an overall agreement or consensus on what the 
role or
> > job
> > > > of the President is or should be; and secondly, the actual
> > election
> > > > process is probably going on as all previous ones but with the
> > > > distinction that it became open to the public because of the
> > internet
> > > > and that this fact has created the situations to which we 
aren't
> > > > accustomed to and therefore much of tension.
> > > >
> > > > According to the Rules and Regulations of the Theosophical 
Society
> > > > the President has a lot of duties and responsibilities: 
she/he is
> > > > Executive Officer and conducts and directs the business of the
> > > > Society, she/he is Chairman of the General Council and the
> > Executive
> > > > Committee and therefore actively involved in the preparation 
of
> > all
> > > > necessary documents and decisions of these bodies; she/he is
> > > > custodian of all archives and records of the Society; she/he 
makes
> > > > temporary appointments in the offices of the Society; she/he 
co-
> > > > receives all subscriptions, donations and other moneys; she/he
> > have
> > > > control over the securities and invested funds of the Society,
> > over
> > > > the transfer of assets of the Society, investments, disposal 
of
> > Adyar
> > > > Estate, and so on, and over all related documents; she/he 
sues in
> > the
> > > > name of the Society; she/he issues the permissions to reside 
in
> > the
> > > > Adyar Estate; she/he issues the Charters and Diplomas, and so 
on.
> > > >
> > > > Now, the branch of medicine which occupies itself with the 
fitness
> > > > for the jobs is Occupational Medicine and is directed by
> > > > corresponding specialists who execute, among other 
examinations,
> > also
> > > > what is usually called Preventive Health Examination with
> > extensive
> > > > medical examination of various parameters. At the end of this
> > > > examination a medical certificate is issued by the specialist 
(In
> > > > Slovenia every person who starts new employment must go 
through
> > this
> > > > examination).
> > > >
> > > > The documents which are now presented to the public in regard 
to
> > the
> > > > health of the actual President are not medical certificates as
> > they
> > > > do not report the results of medical examination (such 
document is
> > > > strictly confidential) but are doctors' opinions based on 
their
> > > > examination of the health of the actual President. We don't 
know
> > to
> > > > what kind of medical examinations the President was exposed to
> > and to
> > > > what branch of medicine the doctors belong to but it seems 
from
> > their
> > > > letters that their examinations were executed at the 
Headquarters
> > of
> > > > the Society and that no special medical examinations were 
held,
> > and
> > > > that that on the basis of these examinations the doctors 
opinions
> > are
> > > > that the actual President is "fit to undertake any 
responsibility
> > > > involving strenuous physical and mental activity" and travel 
and
> > > > that "she is able to exercise her work as the president of the
> > > > Theosophical society".
> > > >
> > > > Common sense tells me that in the case of 84 year old person 
who
> > had
> > > > a stroke such statements hardly reflects the actual situation 
and
> > > > that doctors comments regarding the situation in the Society 
and
> > the
> > > > time when they were issued, clearly indicates that these 
documents
> > > > were produced because of the President's needs in regard to 
the
> > > > election process.
> > > >
> > > > In the absence of the practice that the candidates for the 
office
> > of
> > > > the President should expose themselves to the overall medical
> > > > examination the election process became, quite naturally in my
> > > > opinion, influenced by the suspicions in regard to the actual
> > > > President's fitness from the part of, but far not only, the
> > > > supporters of contra candidate and by the reaction of the
> > supporters
> > > > of the actual President with the production of documents in 
her
> > > > favor.
> > > >
> > > > So, we are witnessing, in my view, an improper behavior from 
the
> > part
> > > > of supporters of both candidates and don't have an impartial
> > medical
> > > > opinion regarding the health of the actual President. 
Probably the
> > > > truth is, as always, somewhere in the middle.
> > > >
> > > > The solution of this unpleasant situation was and is only in 
the
> > > > hands of the candidates, but in the first place in the hands 
of
> > the
> > > > actual President, for both candidates are also members of the
> > > > Executive Committee and General Council and therefore it is 
hard
> > to
> > > > believe that these bodies will be even able to meet before the
> > > > conclusion of the elections.
> > > >
> > > > Anton
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>