Theos-Talk Archives (April 2008 Message tt00053)

Its even less of the right thing to be doing today in a world that is 
imbued with human rights, a movement that HPB played a big role in 
starting and the USA of today represents.

According to the Free Tibet websites posted earlier, world leaders 
have it pegged right this time in demanding China step down, get out 
of Tibet, and let the Dalai Lama who is the only rightful ruler of 
that soverign country, resume leadership.

The wheel of Karma has turned and will provide those of us who 
exercise Right Action engendered by Right Thought with a ride out of 
this Round and the devil will take the rest.


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@...> wrote:
>
> Doesn't make it the right thing to do Richard
>   Cass
> 
> Richard Semock <semockr@...> wrote:
>           Speaking of casting stones, name one European or middle 
eastern 
> country that wasnt formed by grabbing the land from someone who was 
> there first. They continued this pattern in the Americas until now 
> everyone is a holier-than-thou bunch of reformed drunks chasing 
after 
> escaped Nazis, and an assortment of dictators who step across the 
> line today.
> 
> Genghis Khan who hailed from central Asia was the greatest of the 
> ethnic cleansers tho who it is said left heaps of bones across 
> Europe. Where do you think the Europeans got the idea, right from 
> your Chinese friends who are still doing it today to their own 
people 
> in the form of organ harvesting of the Falun Gong or to others such 
> as the Tibetans and this is only the tip of the iceberg.
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@> wrote:
> >
> > Richard, people in glass houses, should not throw stones as the 
old 
> saying goes. I am not an American and I am totally unfamiliar with 
> your constitution, but I was referrring to Free Speech not the 
> freedom of religious beliefs. The freedom of religious beliefs were 
> made at a time when there was only two religions operating in the 
> west, christianity and protestanism. Salem showed that religious 
> beliefs were strictly christian beliefs.
> > 
> > For the record, I do not support China's actions in Tibet, as 
> much as I do not support the horrors perpetrated by the christian 
> settlers on the American Indians. But there is no hypocricy with 
the 
> Chinese, they do not hide behind a constitution that is constantly 
> set up as the ideal and at the same time flagrantly crushes those 
> ideals. 
> > 
> > Cass
> > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of 
> religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging 
the 
> freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people 
> peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress 
> of grievances.
> > 
> > After World War I, several cases involving laws limiting speech 
> came before the Supreme Court. The Espionage Act of 1917 imposed a 
> maximum sentence of twenty years for anyone who caused or attempted 
> to cause "insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty 
in 
> the military or naval forces of the United States." Under the Act, 
> over two thousand prosecutions were commenced. For instance, one 
> filmmaker was sentenced to ten years imprisonment because his 
> portrayal of British soldiers in a movie about the American 
> Revolution impugned the good faith of an American ally, the United 
> Kingdom. The Sedition Act of 1918 went even further, 
> criminalizing "disloyal," "scurrilous" or "abusive" language 
against 
> the government.
> > in 1968, the Court upheld a law prohibiting the mutilation of 
> draft cards in United States v. O'Brien 391 U.S. 367 (1968). The 
> Court ruled that protesters could not burn draft cards because 
doing 
> so would interfere with the "smooth and efficient functioning" of 
the 
> draft system. Then again, in 1971, the court found that a person 
> could not be punished for wearing, in the corridors of the Los 
> Angeles county Courthouse, a jacket reading "Fuck the Draft," Cohen 
> v. California (403 U.S. 15).
> > In 1969, the Supreme Court ruled that free speech rights extended 
> to students in school while deciding Tinker v. Des Moines 
Independent 
> Community School District, 393 U.S. 503 (1969). The case involved 
> several students who were punished for wearing black arm-bands to 
> protest the Vietnam War. The Supreme Court ruled that the school 
> could not restrict symbolic speech that did not cause undue 
> interruptions of school activities. Justice Abe Fortas 
> wrote, "schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School 
> officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. 
> Students...are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must 
> respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to 
> the State." The decision was arguably overruled, or at least 
> undermined, by Bethel School District v. Fraser 478 U.S. 675 
(1986), 
> in which the Court held a student could be punished for his speech 
> before a public assembly.
> > Also in 1969, the Court decided the landmark Brandenburg v. Ohio, 
> 395 U.S. 444 (1969) , which overruled Whitney v. California 274 
U.S. 
> 357 (1927), a case in which a woman was imprisoned for aiding the 
> Communist Party. Brandenburg effectively swept away Dennis as well, 
> casting the right to speak freely of violent action and revolution 
in 
> broad terms: "[Our] decisions have fashioned the principle that the 
> constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not 
permit 
> a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of 
law 
> violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or 
> producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or 
produce 
> such action." Some claim that Brandenburg essentially sets forth a 
> reworded "clear and present danger" test, but the accuracy of such 
> statements is hard to judge. The Court has never heard or decided a 
> case involving seditious speech since Brandenburg was handed down.
> > The federal government and the states have long been permitted to 
> restrict obscenity or pornography. While obscenity generally has no 
> protection under the First Amendment, pornography is subject to 
> little regulation. The exact definition of obscenity and 
pornography, 
> however, has changed over time.
> > When it decided Rosen v. United States in 1896, the Supreme Court 
> adopted the same obscenity standard as had been articulated in a 
> famous British case, Regina v. Hicklin. The Hicklin standard 
defined 
> material as obscene if it tended "to deprave or corrupt those whose 
> minds are open to such immoral influences, and into whose hands a 
> publication of this sort may fall." In 1957, the Court ruled in 
Roth 
> v. United States that the Hicklin test was inappropriate. Instead, 
> the Roth test for obscenity was "whether to the average person, 
> applying contemporary community standards, the dominant theme of 
the 
> material, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest."
> > In 1964 Justice Potter Stewart, in Jacobellis v. Ohio, famously 
> stated that, although he could not precisely define pornography, "I 
> know it when I see it."
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Richard Semock <semockr@> wrote:
> > 
> > If you are refering to the 1st amendment right in the US 
> > constitution, your proposal would be a poor test of it. It falls 
> into 
> > the class of endangering speech such as crying fire! in a crowded 
> > ballet performance and would not be deemed a freedom. 
> > 
> > Now if you want to say something like this to the CCP potentates 
in 
> > Tibet, then that would be another matter entirely and one worthy 
of 
> > support.
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@> wrote:
> > >
> > > We can test the 'ideal' or notion of freedom of speech, by 
> telling 
> > a Judge or a Policemen to get f*****.
> > > Cass
> > > 
> > > Drpsionic@ wrote:
> > > It's an ideal that has the force of law behind it in the 
> > US.? If an athlete is actually disciplined by the US Olympic 
> > committee, he can probably sue for consipiracy to violate his 
civil 
> > rights and given the way the courts rule in such matters, collect 
> > significant damages.
> > > 
> > > We upset the apple cart all the time around here.
> > > 
> > > Chuck the Heretic
> > > 
> > > http://www.geocities.com/c_cosimano 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@>
> > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 7:08 pm
> > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Are China facing the Law of Karma?
> > > 
> > > So much for freedom of speech eh! My mother told me years ago 
> that 
> > freedom of speech is just an ideal, it doesn't exist in the real 
> > world. It's a nice idea but upset the apple cart and you will be 
> > regarded as a bad apple and dealt with appropriately. The ideal 
of 
> > national security has taken away all our personal freedoms. We 
have 
> a 
> > new nose on an old face, democracy mimicking communism. Democracy 
> > invents a reason, doesn't matter if it is true or false, 
communism 
> > promised a better way of life. 
> > > 
> > > Cass
> > > 
> > > Cass
> > > 
> > > Drpsionic@ wrote:
> > > 
> > > The IOC has placed restrictions on what the athletes can say at 
> > olympic events, however, at least as far as the US is concerned, 
I 
> > would not be surprised if Congress passes a bill forbidding the 
US 
> > olympic committee from enforcing any restrictions on what US 
> athletes 
> > might say in protest and that would also block any disciplinary 
> > action by the IOC as well as the US olympic committee would have 
to 
> > enforce those.
> > > 
> > > Chuck the Heretic
> > > 
> > > http://www.geocities.com/c_cosimano 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@>
> > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 9:17 pm
> > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Are China facing the Law of Karma?
> > > 
> > > Come to think of it, very little advertising in Australia this 
> year 
> > for the Olympics. 
> > > Cass
> > > 
> > > Drpsionic@ wrote:
> > > No, they wouldn't change the location now, but it would 
certainly 
> > make life interesting for the IOC.? By the way, my wife has 
noticed 
> > something.? Normally the companies that sponsor the games use 
that 
> in 
> > their advertising, usually at the tail end of their commercials 
> with 
> > the olympic logo.? Not this year.? They are not mentioning it at 
> all, 
> > which means that the sponsors?are already losing money.
> > > 
> > > Chuck the Heretic
> > > 
> > > http://www.geocities.com/c_cosimano 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@>
> > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 4:38 am
> > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Are China facing the Law of Karma?
> > > 
> > > It won't happen Chuck, too much money invested. They could ban 
> > China and reschedule the games back to Greece, but that won't 
> happen.
> > > Not taking any sides but I heard on the news that inflation is 
> now 
> > running at 9 percent in Tibet and the people are struggling 
> > economically, on the good side, their health and education has 
been 
> > improved since chinese occupation, life mortality is up 
apparently, 
> > but I suppose its no good living longer if you dont have the 
money 
> to 
> > feed yourself.
> > > 
> > > Cass
> > > 
> > > Drpsionic@ wrote:
> > > 
> > > China believes that Tibet is a part of China.? 
> > > 
> > > China is an interesting country in that it actually does not 
have 
> a 
> > history expansionism after the Mongols, but it does claim an 
> interest 
> > in certain contiguous territories.
> > > 
> > > Now, conventional protests don't work on the Chinese.? They 
have 
> > skins almost as thick as American conservatives and they just 
don't 
> > give a damn.? But they are sensitive to certain things and while 
> the 
> > IOC is not going to cancel its games, the IOC can be made to pay 
> for 
> > having them in China, or rather its sponsors can.? Now this is 
> really 
> > out of my field of knowledge, but if a major boycott of Olympic 
> > sponsors could be organized...
> > > 
> > > Chuck the Heretic
> > > 
> > > http://www.geocities.com/c_cosimano 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@>
> > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 6:06 pm
> > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Are China facing the Law of Karma?
> > > 
> > > I am curious to know why China would be interested in Tibet. 
It's 
> > not as though the country would ever be a threat to China, it's 
not 
> > as though they have minerals or oil, perhaps the only threat is 
> that 
> > the Chinese fear that Tibetinism will spread to the Mainland, who 
> > knows? If Karma is involved Morten, I suspect that Tibet is also 
> > dealing with its national karma as well as China.
> > > 
> > > Cass
> > > 
> > > Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@> wrote:
> > > 
> > > To all readers
> > > 
> > > To all readers
> > > 
> > > My views are:
> > > 
> > > Now, what is going on?
> > > 
> > > Are China facing the Law of Karma?
> > > 
> > > Tibet gripped by violent clashes
> > > 
> > > a.. Jonathan Watts in Beijing 
> > > 
> > > b.. guardian.co.uk, 
> > > 
> > > c.. Friday March 14 2008
> > > 
> > > d.. Article history
> > > 
> > > About this article
> > > 
> > > Close 
> > > 
> > > This article was first published on guardian.co.uk on Friday 
> March 
> > 14 2008. It was last updated at 14:56 on March 14 2008.
> > > 
> > > Tibetans throw stones at Chinese army vehicles in Lhasa as 
> violent 
> > protests against Chinese rule break out. Photograph: AFP/Getty 
> Images
> > > 
> > > The Tibetan capital of Lhasa was on the brink of chaos today as 
> the 
> > fiercest anti-government protests in almost 20 years erupted into 
> > violence between Chinese security forces and protesters wielding 
> iron 
> > bars.
> > > 
> > > A radio station reported at least two people had been killed in 
> the 
> > rioting. The US-funded Radio Free Asia quoted two witnesses as 
> saying 
> > two bodies were seen lying on the ground in the Barkor area, a 
> > shopping district where protests had been particularly fierce.
> > > 
> > > Armed police used water cannons and teargas on the crowds, and 
> > witnesses say security vehicles were set on fire and Chinese 
> drivers 
> > were carried off with bloodied faces after being beaten by a mob 
of 
> > young Tibetans.
> > > 
> > > The US embassy in Beijing said its citizens in Lhasa had 
reported 
> > gunshots being fired in the city. The embassy emailed an advisory 
> > note to Americans warning them to stay away from the city, now in 
> its 
> > fifth day of anti-Chinese protests.
> > > 
> > > The Dalai Lama, the spiritual leader of Tibet's Buddhists, 
urged 
> > China not to use violence to quell the protests, which he 
called "a 
> > manifestation of the deep-rooted resentment of the Tibetan people 
> > under the present governance".
> > > 
> > > "I therefore appeal to the Chinese leadership to stop using 
force 
> > and address the long-simmering resentment of the Tibetan people 
> > through dialogue with the Tibetan people," he said in a statement.
> > > 
> > > The EU and the White House also issued statements urging China 
to 
> > show restraint.
> > > 
> > > Coming just months before the start of the 2008 Olympics, the 
> > protests against Beijing rule threaten to overshadow preparations 
> for 
> > the games.
> > > 
> > > A resident told the Guardian that he heard an explosion and 
> around 
> > 10 shots every minute at one point, but thought it was teargas 
> rather 
> > than bullets being fired because he saw people running from 
plumes 
> of 
> > smoke and covering their mouths.
> > > 
> > > "I am too afraid to go out," the source, who asked to remain 
> > anonymous, said. "It is chaos out there."
> > > 
> > > The source, who is from the Chinese Han ethnic group, said he 
saw 
> > Tibetans attack two fire engines.
> > > 
> > > "I saw Tibetans throwing stones at the vehicles. They dragged 
> > drivers from vehicles, took off their uniforms and helmets, then 
> beat 
> > them.
> > > 
> > > "The chanting mob beat up around five or six drivers who had to 
> be 
> > carried away with blood on their faces ... then they put a 
> motorbike 
> > under the fire engine and set fire to it so the engine was 
burned."
> > > 
> > > The report was difficult to confirm. The Chinese government has 
> yet 
> > to make a statement, and communications with the tightly-
controlled 
> > Himalayan region are difficult even during calm periods.
> > > 
> > > A blogger who writes from Lhasa under the name Beifang 
described 
> > the violence on his blog.
> > > 
> > > "Police cars and fire engines were outside smashed and burned. 
A 
> > lot of Tibetans ran towards Dazhao [Jokhang] temple. I heard 
> > gunshots. Five army police vehicles drove that way. A large 
number 
> of 
> > armed police followed. A few people with blood on their faces 
were 
> > taken away."
> > > 
> > > Tibetan support groups overseas said they were hearing reports 
of 
> a 
> > fire and protests near the Tromsikhang market near the Jokhang 
> temple 
> > in central Lhasa.
> > > 
> > > According to the Free Tibet campaign, there were also protests 
> > today in the Labrang monastery in Gansu province, where 200 monks 
> led 
> > demonstrations on the streets. The group said this showed the 
> > protests were gathering momentum.
> > > 
> > > The AFP news agency said one of its reporters saw monks leading 
a 
> > crowd of around 300 people near the monastery, one of the most 
> > important in Tibetan Buddhism.
> > > 
> > > Since the first protest by monks on Monday, thousands of armed 
> > police have locked down monasteries in and around Lhasa. 
Witnesses 
> > said today's protesters were mostly lay Tibetans.
> > > 
> > > China's Xinhua news agency reported that shops had been set on 
> fire 
> > in Lhasa but gave no other details. 
> > > 
> > > The International Campaign for Tibet said two monks at the Sera 
> > monastery had stabbed themselves and others had gone on hunger 
> strike.
> > > 
> > > About a dozen monks were reportedly detained on Monday, when 
> > several hundred from the Sera and Drepung monasteries took to the 
> > streets to mark the 49th anniversary of a failed uprising against 
> > Beijing. Similar protests took place in the Ganden and Lutsang 
> > monasteries in Qinghai (known in Tibetan as Amdo) where hundreds 
of 
> > monks reportedly chanted slogans calling for their exiled leader, 
> the 
> > Dalai Lama, to return.
> > > 
> > > The upsurge in activism comes amid growing frustration with the 
> > lack of progress in talks between representatives of the Dalai 
Lama 
> > and Beijing.
> > > 
> > > M. Sufilight
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > 
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