Theos-Talk Archives (April 2008 Message tt00035)

Doesn't make it the right thing to do Richard
  Cass

Richard Semock <semockr@hotmail.com> wrote:
          Speaking of casting stones, name one European or middle eastern 
country that wasnt formed by grabbing the land from someone who was 
there first. They continued this pattern in the Americas until now 
everyone is a holier-than-thou bunch of reformed drunks chasing after 
escaped Nazis, and an assortment of dictators who step across the 
line today.

Genghis Khan who hailed from central Asia was the greatest of the 
ethnic cleansers tho who it is said left heaps of bones across 
Europe. Where do you think the Europeans got the idea, right from 
your Chinese friends who are still doing it today to their own people 
in the form of organ harvesting of the Falun Gong or to others such 
as the Tibetans and this is only the tip of the iceberg.

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@...> wrote:
>
> Richard, people in glass houses, should not throw stones as the old 
saying goes. I am not an American and I am totally unfamiliar with 
your constitution, but I was referrring to Free Speech not the 
freedom of religious beliefs. The freedom of religious beliefs were 
made at a time when there was only two religions operating in the 
west, christianity and protestanism. Salem showed that religious 
beliefs were strictly christian beliefs.
> 
> For the record, I do not support China's actions in Tibet, as 
much as I do not support the horrors perpetrated by the christian 
settlers on the American Indians. But there is no hypocricy with the 
Chinese, they do not hide behind a constitution that is constantly 
set up as the ideal and at the same time flagrantly crushes those 
ideals. 
> 
> Cass
> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of 
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the 
freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people 
peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress 
of grievances.
> 
> After World War I, several cases involving laws limiting speech 
came before the Supreme Court. The Espionage Act of 1917 imposed a 
maximum sentence of twenty years for anyone who caused or attempted 
to cause "insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty in 
the military or naval forces of the United States." Under the Act, 
over two thousand prosecutions were commenced. For instance, one 
filmmaker was sentenced to ten years imprisonment because his 
portrayal of British soldiers in a movie about the American 
Revolution impugned the good faith of an American ally, the United 
Kingdom. The Sedition Act of 1918 went even further, 
criminalizing "disloyal," "scurrilous" or "abusive" language against 
the government.
> in 1968, the Court upheld a law prohibiting the mutilation of 
draft cards in United States v. O'Brien 391 U.S. 367 (1968). The 
Court ruled that protesters could not burn draft cards because doing 
so would interfere with the "smooth and efficient functioning" of the 
draft system. Then again, in 1971, the court found that a person 
could not be punished for wearing, in the corridors of the Los 
Angeles county Courthouse, a jacket reading "Fuck the Draft," Cohen 
v. California (403 U.S. 15).
> In 1969, the Supreme Court ruled that free speech rights extended 
to students in school while deciding Tinker v. Des Moines Independent 
Community School District, 393 U.S. 503 (1969). The case involved 
several students who were punished for wearing black arm-bands to 
protest the Vietnam War. The Supreme Court ruled that the school 
could not restrict symbolic speech that did not cause undue 
interruptions of school activities. Justice Abe Fortas 
wrote, "schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School 
officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. 
Students...are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must 
respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to 
the State." The decision was arguably overruled, or at least 
undermined, by Bethel School District v. Fraser 478 U.S. 675 (1986), 
in which the Court held a student could be punished for his speech 
before a public assembly.
> Also in 1969, the Court decided the landmark Brandenburg v. Ohio, 
395 U.S. 444 (1969) , which overruled Whitney v. California 274 U.S. 
357 (1927), a case in which a woman was imprisoned for aiding the 
Communist Party. Brandenburg effectively swept away Dennis as well, 
casting the right to speak freely of violent action and revolution in 
broad terms: "[Our] decisions have fashioned the principle that the 
constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit 
a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law 
violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or 
producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce 
such action." Some claim that Brandenburg essentially sets forth a 
reworded "clear and present danger" test, but the accuracy of such 
statements is hard to judge. The Court has never heard or decided a 
case involving seditious speech since Brandenburg was handed down.
> The federal government and the states have long been permitted to 
restrict obscenity or pornography. While obscenity generally has no 
protection under the First Amendment, pornography is subject to 
little regulation. The exact definition of obscenity and pornography, 
however, has changed over time.
> When it decided Rosen v. United States in 1896, the Supreme Court 
adopted the same obscenity standard as had been articulated in a 
famous British case, Regina v. Hicklin. The Hicklin standard defined 
material as obscene if it tended "to deprave or corrupt those whose 
minds are open to such immoral influences, and into whose hands a 
publication of this sort may fall." In 1957, the Court ruled in Roth 
v. United States that the Hicklin test was inappropriate. Instead, 
the Roth test for obscenity was "whether to the average person, 
applying contemporary community standards, the dominant theme of the 
material, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest."
> In 1964 Justice Potter Stewart, in Jacobellis v. Ohio, famously 
stated that, although he could not precisely define pornography, "I 
know it when I see it."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Richard Semock <semockr@...> wrote:
> 
> If you are refering to the 1st amendment right in the US 
> constitution, your proposal would be a poor test of it. It falls 
into 
> the class of endangering speech such as crying fire! in a crowded 
> ballet performance and would not be deemed a freedom. 
> 
> Now if you want to say something like this to the CCP potentates in 
> Tibet, then that would be another matter entirely and one worthy of 
> support.
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@> wrote:
> >
> > We can test the 'ideal' or notion of freedom of speech, by 
telling 
> a Judge or a Policemen to get f*****.
> > Cass
> > 
> > Drpsionic@ wrote:
> > It's an ideal that has the force of law behind it in the 
> US.? If an athlete is actually disciplined by the US Olympic 
> committee, he can probably sue for consipiracy to violate his civil 
> rights and given the way the courts rule in such matters, collect 
> significant damages.
> > 
> > We upset the apple cart all the time around here.
> > 
> > Chuck the Heretic
> > 
> > http://www.geocities.com/c_cosimano 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@>
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 7:08 pm
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Are China facing the Law of Karma?
> > 
> > So much for freedom of speech eh! My mother told me years ago 
that 
> freedom of speech is just an ideal, it doesn't exist in the real 
> world. It's a nice idea but upset the apple cart and you will be 
> regarded as a bad apple and dealt with appropriately. The ideal of 
> national security has taken away all our personal freedoms. We have 
a 
> new nose on an old face, democracy mimicking communism. Democracy 
> invents a reason, doesn't matter if it is true or false, communism 
> promised a better way of life. 
> > 
> > Cass
> > 
> > Cass
> > 
> > Drpsionic@ wrote:
> > 
> > The IOC has placed restrictions on what the athletes can say at 
> olympic events, however, at least as far as the US is concerned, I 
> would not be surprised if Congress passes a bill forbidding the US 
> olympic committee from enforcing any restrictions on what US 
athletes 
> might say in protest and that would also block any disciplinary 
> action by the IOC as well as the US olympic committee would have to 
> enforce those.
> > 
> > Chuck the Heretic
> > 
> > http://www.geocities.com/c_cosimano 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@>
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 9:17 pm
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Are China facing the Law of Karma?
> > 
> > Come to think of it, very little advertising in Australia this 
year 
> for the Olympics. 
> > Cass
> > 
> > Drpsionic@ wrote:
> > No, they wouldn't change the location now, but it would certainly 
> make life interesting for the IOC.? By the way, my wife has noticed 
> something.? Normally the companies that sponsor the games use that 
in 
> their advertising, usually at the tail end of their commercials 
with 
> the olympic logo.? Not this year.? They are not mentioning it at 
all, 
> which means that the sponsors?are already losing money.
> > 
> > Chuck the Heretic
> > 
> > http://www.geocities.com/c_cosimano 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@>
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 4:38 am
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Are China facing the Law of Karma?
> > 
> > It won't happen Chuck, too much money invested. They could ban 
> China and reschedule the games back to Greece, but that won't 
happen.
> > Not taking any sides but I heard on the news that inflation is 
now 
> running at 9 percent in Tibet and the people are struggling 
> economically, on the good side, their health and education has been 
> improved since chinese occupation, life mortality is up apparently, 
> but I suppose its no good living longer if you dont have the money 
to 
> feed yourself.
> > 
> > Cass
> > 
> > Drpsionic@ wrote:
> > 
> > China believes that Tibet is a part of China.? 
> > 
> > China is an interesting country in that it actually does not have 
a 
> history expansionism after the Mongols, but it does claim an 
interest 
> in certain contiguous territories.
> > 
> > Now, conventional protests don't work on the Chinese.? They have 
> skins almost as thick as American conservatives and they just don't 
> give a damn.? But they are sensitive to certain things and while 
the 
> IOC is not going to cancel its games, the IOC can be made to pay 
for 
> having them in China, or rather its sponsors can.? Now this is 
really 
> out of my field of knowledge, but if a major boycott of Olympic 
> sponsors could be organized...
> > 
> > Chuck the Heretic
> > 
> > http://www.geocities.com/c_cosimano 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@>
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 6:06 pm
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Are China facing the Law of Karma?
> > 
> > I am curious to know why China would be interested in Tibet. It's 
> not as though the country would ever be a threat to China, it's not 
> as though they have minerals or oil, perhaps the only threat is 
that 
> the Chinese fear that Tibetinism will spread to the Mainland, who 
> knows? If Karma is involved Morten, I suspect that Tibet is also 
> dealing with its national karma as well as China.
> > 
> > Cass
> > 
> > Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@> wrote:
> > 
> > To all readers
> > 
> > To all readers
> > 
> > My views are:
> > 
> > Now, what is going on?
> > 
> > Are China facing the Law of Karma?
> > 
> > Tibet gripped by violent clashes
> > 
> > a.. Jonathan Watts in Beijing 
> > 
> > b.. guardian.co.uk, 
> > 
> > c.. Friday March 14 2008
> > 
> > d.. Article history
> > 
> > About this article
> > 
> > Close 
> > 
> > This article was first published on guardian.co.uk on Friday 
March 
> 14 2008. It was last updated at 14:56 on March 14 2008.
> > 
> > Tibetans throw stones at Chinese army vehicles in Lhasa as 
violent 
> protests against Chinese rule break out. Photograph: AFP/Getty 
Images
> > 
> > The Tibetan capital of Lhasa was on the brink of chaos today as 
the 
> fiercest anti-government protests in almost 20 years erupted into 
> violence between Chinese security forces and protesters wielding 
iron 
> bars.
> > 
> > A radio station reported at least two people had been killed in 
the 
> rioting. The US-funded Radio Free Asia quoted two witnesses as 
saying 
> two bodies were seen lying on the ground in the Barkor area, a 
> shopping district where protests had been particularly fierce.
> > 
> > Armed police used water cannons and teargas on the crowds, and 
> witnesses say security vehicles were set on fire and Chinese 
drivers 
> were carried off with bloodied faces after being beaten by a mob of 
> young Tibetans.
> > 
> > The US embassy in Beijing said its citizens in Lhasa had reported 
> gunshots being fired in the city. The embassy emailed an advisory 
> note to Americans warning them to stay away from the city, now in 
its 
> fifth day of anti-Chinese protests.
> > 
> > The Dalai Lama, the spiritual leader of Tibet's Buddhists, urged 
> China not to use violence to quell the protests, which he called "a 
> manifestation of the deep-rooted resentment of the Tibetan people 
> under the present governance".
> > 
> > "I therefore appeal to the Chinese leadership to stop using force 
> and address the long-simmering resentment of the Tibetan people 
> through dialogue with the Tibetan people," he said in a statement.
> > 
> > The EU and the White House also issued statements urging China to 
> show restraint.
> > 
> > Coming just months before the start of the 2008 Olympics, the 
> protests against Beijing rule threaten to overshadow preparations 
for 
> the games.
> > 
> > A resident told the Guardian that he heard an explosion and 
around 
> 10 shots every minute at one point, but thought it was teargas 
rather 
> than bullets being fired because he saw people running from plumes 
of 
> smoke and covering their mouths.
> > 
> > "I am too afraid to go out," the source, who asked to remain 
> anonymous, said. "It is chaos out there."
> > 
> > The source, who is from the Chinese Han ethnic group, said he saw 
> Tibetans attack two fire engines.
> > 
> > "I saw Tibetans throwing stones at the vehicles. They dragged 
> drivers from vehicles, took off their uniforms and helmets, then 
beat 
> them.
> > 
> > "The chanting mob beat up around five or six drivers who had to 
be 
> carried away with blood on their faces ... then they put a 
motorbike 
> under the fire engine and set fire to it so the engine was burned."
> > 
> > The report was difficult to confirm. The Chinese government has 
yet 
> to make a statement, and communications with the tightly-controlled 
> Himalayan region are difficult even during calm periods.
> > 
> > A blogger who writes from Lhasa under the name Beifang described 
> the violence on his blog.
> > 
> > "Police cars and fire engines were outside smashed and burned. A 
> lot of Tibetans ran towards Dazhao [Jokhang] temple. I heard 
> gunshots. Five army police vehicles drove that way. A large number 
of 
> armed police followed. A few people with blood on their faces were 
> taken away."
> > 
> > Tibetan support groups overseas said they were hearing reports of 
a 
> fire and protests near the Tromsikhang market near the Jokhang 
temple 
> in central Lhasa.
> > 
> > According to the Free Tibet campaign, there were also protests 
> today in the Labrang monastery in Gansu province, where 200 monks 
led 
> demonstrations on the streets. The group said this showed the 
> protests were gathering momentum.
> > 
> > The AFP news agency said one of its reporters saw monks leading a 
> crowd of around 300 people near the monastery, one of the most 
> important in Tibetan Buddhism.
> > 
> > Since the first protest by monks on Monday, thousands of armed 
> police have locked down monasteries in and around Lhasa. Witnesses 
> said today's protesters were mostly lay Tibetans.
> > 
> > China's Xinhua news agency reported that shops had been set on 
fire 
> in Lhasa but gave no other details. 
> > 
> > The International Campaign for Tibet said two monks at the Sera 
> monastery had stabbed themselves and others had gone on hunger 
strike.
> > 
> > About a dozen monks were reportedly detained on Monday, when 
> several hundred from the Sera and Drepung monasteries took to the 
> streets to mark the 49th anniversary of a failed uprising against 
> Beijing. Similar protests took place in the Ganden and Lutsang 
> monasteries in Qinghai (known in Tibetan as Amdo) where hundreds of 
> monks reportedly chanted slogans calling for their exiled leader, 
the 
> Dalai Lama, to return.
> > 
> > The upsurge in activism comes amid growing frustration with the 
> lack of progress in talks between representatives of the Dalai Lama 
> and Beijing.
> > 
> > M. Sufilight
> > 
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