Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt01426)

Carlos,
I haven't "defended", in the way you use see it, any "ritualistic" 
groups, I have only precented some historical fact, and also make 
clear that your opinion about these groups is non-theosophical, and 
nether occult or historical correct. But I'm defending al true 
esoteric group, if they are falsely attacked. Your strange antipati 
against rituals can't I understand, for even the TS and the ES was 
and are using rituals (and much more under Blavatsky then today). 
And I still see it as highly possible that Blavatsky was the true 
founder of the GD, no matter what they did after her death. I would 
be like to say that Blavatsky didn't found the TS, hence one don't 
like what happened later (after her death) in Adyar. That is the 
same thing, Carlos.

My opinion and criticism about the ULT, have I already said many 
times, so there is no reason to do that again. I could criticise TS 
Adyar and Leadbeater to, but his followers don't defend him here as 
fanatical (like a bolting horse with blinders) as you is defending 
the ULT and Crosbie. 

You wrote:
"Yet -- who preserved the teachings of HPB and Judge, along with 
Pasadena TS,
Point Loma groups, Edmonton Theosophical Society? The ULT did, along 
with them,
and with many an Adyar student; and with support, in most important 
instances,
from Adyar leaders."

Carlos, that is not the point. The thing is that ULT is presenting a 
fake history, and is speeding myths about them self.

And:
"In the first part of 20th century, however, the ULT, the Pasadena 
TS and Point
Loma groups played a key role in preserving the teachings and their 
Spirit. As
they do now. And I don't forget that either."

But one thing has you forgotten; that this statement of yours is a 
non acceptable opinion within the ULT. And during the first part of 
the 20th century, were no Pasadena TS, and only one Point Loma UB & 
TS.

Carl

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> Carl,
> 
> I see a pattern in you that consists in criticizing the ULT. 
> 
> After you defended (if I saw it right)  ritualism and ritualistic 
groups which seem to promote dire kundalini experiences , that could 
be hardly surprising. 
> Tell me if I misunderstood your position. I would not like to be 
unfair in that. 
> 
> Perhaps you would like to specialize yourself in criticizing the 
ULT. Feel free to do that.  The followers of "Bishop" Wedgwood 
and "Bishop" Leadbeater might be happy with you  -- no problem.  
> 
> Yet --  who preserved the teachings of HPB and Judge,  along with 
Pasadena TS, Point Loma groups, Edmonton Theosophical Society? The 
ULT did, along with them, and with many an Adyar student; and  with 
support, in most important instances, from Adyar leaders.  
> 
> In the second half of the 20th century, the HPB's Collected 
Writings, the books by G. Barborka and Sven Eek are among the many 
major examples of this cooperation between Adyar and other 
theosophical groups. This was a major historical fact which I do not 
forget.  
> 
> In the first part of 20th century, however, the ULT, the Pasadena 
TS and Point Loma groups played a key role in preserving the 
teachings and their Spirit. As they do now. And I don't forget that 
either.  
> 
> No ritualistic organization did that.  It was a task for 
Theosophists, regardless of their organizations.  And it was well 
done.    
> 
> 
> Regards,   Carlos. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Cópia:
> 
> Data:Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:46:16 -0000
> 
> Assunto:Theos-World Re: How We See The Movement
> 
> > Carlos,
> > 
> > My sources are not outdated, hence one still can find this in 
the 
> > various ULT-web pages, and the two so called historical 
books "The 
> > Theosophical Movement 1875-25" is still holed as the truth by 
the 
> > ULT-people, and the second one "1875-1950" is still sold buy the 
TC 
> > and several ULT lodges. And I heard this kind of ideas in 
person, 
> > as late as 2004 from leading ULT-people.
> > 
> > "The Judge Case" has I read, and it is lying next to me right 
now 
> > when I'm writing this. And "these problems", as you write, are 
the 
> > problems of ULT, and their (or should I say yours) fake view on 
the 
> > history of the modern Theosophical Movement.
> > 
> > You wrote:
> > "The basic fact is that the common Teaching which unites all 
groups 
> > of HPB/Masters students is immensely greater, wider and more 
> > luminous, as a factor, than those issues in which these groups 
> > think differently.'
> > and
> > "We all have a vast field in common, from G. Farthing readers 
and 
> > many other
> > Adyar members, to the Pasadena TS, the ULT, the Edmonton 
> > Theosophical Society,
> > the Point Loma Groups, and distinguished theosophists as Richard 
> > Robb, or José
> > Ramón Sordo's excellent "Fundación Blavatsky" in Mexico, etc., 
and 
> > so on."
> > 
> > Carlos, this is your opinion, and I can guarantee you that if 
you go 
> > to the ULT in LA, or else were (especially in the US, in Europe 
the 
> > ULT is a little bit more moderate); this is not the opinion 
there. 
> > 
> > And please answerer my questions, and if you don't wont to for 
some 
> > reason, tell me way. 
> > 
> > Carl
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Carl,
> > > 
> > > Thanks for your honest posting.
> > > 
> > > You ask: 
> > > 
> > > "But then tell me, Carlos. Why is the ULT so negative about 
> > Hargrove?
> > > Hence Pasadena and ULT do not agree a bit about what happened 
> > > between 1905 and 1909, it's not easy to find out the truth."
> > > 
> > > I say:
> > > 
> > > Your sources might be outdated. And these questions are side-
> > issues of scarce real importance now for the movement as a 
whole. 
> > > 
> > > On the other hand, I guess you will see a balanced, thoughtful 
and 
> > insightful approach to these problems in Ernest Pelletier's 
> > book "THE JUDGE CASE". You really should read this book, which 
> > contains and constitutes a library of information.
> > > 
> > > Pelletier, a Canadian author who is with the Edmonton 
Theosophical 
> > Society, is, I guess, very sympathetic towards Hargrove. You can 
> > see that by yourself. Yet his views are very serene and 
balanced, 
> > and the Edmonton Theosophical Society has, to say the least, 
lots of 
> > things in common with the ULT, and many a mutual help mechanism 
> > with ULT associates. 
> > > 
> > > Except for one or two people interested in manipulating and 
> > exaggerating past differences and past unfortunate events, you 
will 
> > not find many HPB students interested in denying one central and 
> > basic fact. 
> > > 
> > > The basic fact is that the common Teaching which unites all 
> > groups of HPB/Masters students is immensely greater, wider and 
more 
> > luminous, as a factor, than those issues in which these groups 
> > think differently.
> > > 
> > > Only the differences between HPB/Masters students and 
Leadbeater's 
> > false clairvoyance and ritualism (which are at psychiatrically 
> > linked to CWL's pedophily and to his self-importance "initiate" 
> > delusions) -- only these differences are in fact irreconcilable. 
> > > 
> > > I hope you can see that. 
> > > 
> > > We all have a vast field in common, from G. Farthing readers 
and 
> > many other Adyar members, to the Pasadena TS, the ULT, the 
Edmonton 
> > Theosophical Society, the Point Loma Groups, and distinguished 
> > theosophists as Richard Robb, or José Ramón Sordo's 
> > excellent "Fundación Blavatsky" in Mexico, etc., and so on. 
> > > 
> > > That is my sincere answer to your question. 
> > > 
> > > Regards, Carlos. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > 
> > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > 
> > > Cópia:
> > > 
> > > Data:Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:31:28 -0000
> > > 
> > > Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: The Birth of the ULT
> > > 
> > > > Carlos,
> > > > 
> > > > I don't know how wrote it ether, but my question was if 
there is 
> > any 
> > > > thru in it. But maybe there is a way to find out. To look in 
The 
> > > > Theosophical Quaternaly for this years.
> > > > But then tell me, Carlos. Way is the ULT so negative about 
> > Hargrove?
> > > > Hence Pasadena and ULT do not agree a bit about what 
happened 
> > > > between 1905 and 1909, it's not easy to find out the truth.
> > > > 
> > > > You wrote:
> > > > "Anyway, that which unites Hargrove's students and 
Crosbie's , 
> > and 
> > > > Purucker's,
> > > > and Point Loma's, and Pasadena students is far more 
important, 
> > these 
> > > > days, that
> > > > that which is different in them.
> > > > 
> > > > All of them recognize HPB/Masters as their source, and as 
time 
> > > > passes the common
> > > > "Ocean of Theosophy" will unite them all among them, and 
also to 
> > > > Adyar TS
> > > > students of classical Theosophy."
> > > > 
> > > > I support you there, but way is this not the opinion of ULT?
> > > > 
> > > > I have Tenbroeck's text, but haven't read it for many years. 
And 
> > how 
> > > > do know this is correct anyway?
> > > > 
> > > > Carl
> > > > 
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Carl,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I don't know who writes for "Wikipedia" on this issue and 
> > takes 
> > > > this illusory vision. Do you know? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > You have a correct version on the birth of the ULT from 
Dallas 
> > > > Tenbroeck's
> > > > > text "Biographical Notes on Robert Crosbie". Let me know 
if 
> > you 
> > > > don't have it. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Anyway, that which unites Hargrove's students and 
Crosbie's , 
> > and 
> > > > Purucker's, and Point Loma's, and Pasadena students is far 
more 
> > > > important, these days, that that which is different in them. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > All of them recognize HPB/Masters as their source, and as 
time 
> > > > passes the common "Ocean of Theosophy" will unite them all 
among 
> > > > them, and also to Adyar TS students of classical Theosophy. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Regards, Carlos.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > 
> > > > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > 
> > > > > Cópia:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Data:Tue, 28 Nov 2006 04:43:07 -0000
> > > > > 
> > > > > Assunto:Theos-World The origin of ULT?
> > > > > 
> > > > > > The origin of ULT?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Yesterday I fund this on Wikipedia:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "In 1906 or 1907 the Theosophical Society in America 
> > (Hargrove) 
> > > > gave 
> > > > > > Robert Crosbie a deed of foundation to found a lodge in 
Los 
> > > > Angeles. 
> > > > > > Hargrove can thus be seen as an obstetrician to the 
United 
> > Lodge 
> > > > of 
> > > > > > Theosophists."
> > > > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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