Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt01326)

Since I will have very limited access
to the WWW for several weeks or so, I will
answer at this time Carlos' posting at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/38065

This was in reply to my posting at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/38061

First of all, Carlos writes:

========================================================
1) If you ignore some historical 1893-1896 events, maybe the problem 
is not with the events themselves, but with your absence of knowledge 
about them.
========================================================

Please Carlos, don't be so vague.  What historical events have I 
ignored?  Please tell us what is relevant to this posting that I have 
ignored.  Such a vague answer from you is simply worthless.  You need 
to learn to give adequate replies.  Unless you do, you are simply 
cluttering up Theos-Talk with vagaries.

Then you write:

=================================================================
2) The fact that Mr. Judge had a trust-relationship with Robert 
Crosbie (which is a fact) does not mean, at all, that he did not have 
trust-relationships with other theosophists as well. Judge did have 
other trust-relationships, of course. So please don't use those words 
to suggest that according to the ULT Mr. Judge only had trust in 
Robert Crosbie, and in no one else. I hope you can understand this.
=================================================================

You say this trust-relationship is a "fact".  Can you tell us what 
you are basing this statement of yours on?  Do you have a primary 
source?  Or is this just hear-say or are you just saying it because 
you've heard it somewhere?

So from what you are saying here then you must know what Jasper 
Niemand said about the relationship between Judge and Tingley.  
Right? If you have perchance forgotten it in the flurry of postings 
that you regularly dash off to Theos-Talk, I will give it below for 
your careful mental review.  Here it is:

Jasper Niemand wrote:

". . . the present Outer Head [Mrs. Tingley] has for
two years past assisted Mr. Judge in the inner work of
the School as his associate and equal. Some of these
Councillors were doing important work under her
directions, and by the order of Mr. Judge, for some
time before he passed away. . . . For myself, I may
say that as early as June, 1894, Mr. Judge told me of
the standing of the present Outer Head in the school,
and spoke of her work at that time and for the future.
I am one among several to whom he so spoke himself.
. . . ."

Jasper Niemand was the compiler of the two volumes of
W.Q. Judge's "Letters That Have Helped Me."

Now Carlos please pay attention here.  What Jasper says above is fully
confirmed by the following words of Mr. Crosbie:

". . . Katherine Tingley . . . was appointed by
William Q. Judge as his successor."

"We feel that he [William Q. Judge] knows of the
self-sacrificing efforts made by the faithful ones,
and that those efforts have been called forth by his
chosen successor [Mrs. Tingley], of whom he said, 'she
is true as steel, as clear as diamond, and as lasting
as time.' "

Here are two of Judge's "confidants" giving testimony about Mrs. 
Tingley.

Yet if you have ever read and carefully studied the material on Mrs. 
Tingley as given by the ULT writers/Theosophy Magazine editors in the 
2 volumes of THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (volumes sold by Theosophy Co. 
and sold by ULT lodges), the above testimony by Robert Crosbie and 
Jasper Niemand is TOTALLY IGNORED.

In both volumes a terribly negative picture is given of Mrs. Tingley 
and it is asserted in these 2 volumes that Mrs. Tingley was either 
somehow involved in a fraud following Mr. Judge's death or that she 
was some psychic of the deluded kind.  Please read the chapters in 
these two books to refresh your memory.

Even the late Dallas TenBroeck has painted here on Theos-Talk a quite 
negative picture of Mrs. Tingley.  

Why have the above ULT writers completely ignored the positive 
testimony I cited from Robert Crosbie and Jasper Niemand??

And why does the Theosophy Company and the ULT lodges in 2006 
continue to promote this NEGATIVE view of Mrs. Tingley in this 
book????

This is not old history Carlos but something happening in 2006.

New students and inquirers in 2006 and in future years who come 
across Theosophy Company/ULT literature is going to be influenced by 
this negative portrayal of Mrs. Tingley.  

As an associate of ULT, aren't you concerned here in 2006 to present 
the most accurate information about Theosophical history especially 
Mrs. Tingely.

You seemed concerned when the Adyar TS promotes misleading 
information about Mr. Leadbeater, so where is your conscience and 
concern in this matter when it comes to Mrs. Tingley and what the 
Theosophy Co./ULT is promoting about Mrs. Tingely?

I hope that you will address this issue and not try to sweep it under 
the carpet because the continuing propagation and promotion of this 
negative info about Mrs. Tingley is an ongoing problem.

Hoping you will address this issue directly and will do your part to 
stop the spread of what can only be called misleading and false 
information.  Instead please help us in promoting the testimonies of 
Japser Niemand and Robert Crosbie as given above.

And finally, you write:

===================================================================
3) Since the middle of the 20th century, the movement has changed and 
evolved. Your view of the relationship between the ULT and other 
Blavatsky/Judge groups and institutions is, let's say, "slightly 
outdated".
==================================================================

Well, Carlos, you are here confusing two separate issues:  (1) the 
issue of the relationship between Crosbie and Tingley and (2) the 
issue of the ULT and its relationship to other Theosophical groups in 
2006. 

The Crosbie-Tingely issue is a historical one and must be dealt with 
on its own terms.

As to the relationship between the ULT and other Theosophical groups, 
do you think it is good for misinformation about Mrs. Tingley to be 
still promoted?  How do you think this influences members of the 
Pasadena TS who hold Mrs. Tingley in high regards???  From speaking 
to some of these members, they think it is very unfair that the 
Theosophy Co. still promotes this misinformation in one of their 
publications.

I will not have continuous access to the WWW from time to time in the 
next several weeks so there may be periods of time when I do not 
answer.  But never fear I have not perished or lost my way.  :)

Daniel