CWL "Killing Indians"
Nov 14, 2006 10:17 AM
by carlosaveline
Christina,
Thanks. Nice dialogue.
First, CWL never went to Brazil or S. America.
No one who ever studied the issue (Gregory Tillett, Joy Mills, etc.) admits that hypothesis.
Second, since he never went there, what was the psychological need for him to invent this story? Does Freud explain those violent fancies?
Third, one who really has to kill in self-defense will never brag about that. If he narrates the episode, he will to that in a sober way, lamenting the need to kill.
Fourth, a novelist is supposed to research the country where the novel is based. Social conditions described by CWL are absolutely incompatible with the reality of facts, which makes of him a poor story-teller.
Regards, Carlos.
De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Cópia:
Data:Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:25:01 -0000
Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: CWL and the Idea of "Inferior Ethnical Groups"
> Never heared about self defending?
>
>
>
>
>
> -- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"
> wrote:
> >
> > Christina,
> >
> > Hi. Thanks again.
> >
> > Well, CWL could not kill everyone. But he tried.
> >
> > Whether we believe or not his false statement that the story is
> true, the fact remains that Leadbeater says, with pride and clearly,
> that he killed lots of indigenous people. In the narration, there
> is a sense of pleasure in killing.
> >
> > His racism -- something rather pioneer to nazism -- is also
> undeniable. The concept of "inferior people", as "inferior ethnical
> groups", is there and it is outstanding. For him, there is not much
> trouble in killing those "primitive beings".
> >
> > Something more akin to nazism than to Theosophy, perhaps.
> >
> > Al the best, Carlos.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Cópia:
> >
> > Data:Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:53:30 -0000
> >
> > Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: CWL The revenge from Perfume of
> Egypt.
> >
> > > Also Leadbeater could not kill the killer of his brother Gerald
> look
> > > at page 262.
> > >
> > > Christina
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "christinaleestemaker"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I have the same book and I stay saying Leadbeater have nothing
> to
> > > do
> > > > with racism and all things said about him.
> > > > That you see that different, say something about you.
> > > > Christina.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Christina,
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi.
> > > > >
> > > > > As my written references say, I am working with the
> > > > India/Adyar/TPH 1978 edition of "The Perfume".
> > > > >
> > > > > It is all there, the rascism, the contempt for black people,
> for
> > > > indigenous people, the lack of basic information about the
> > > profound
> > > > ethnic mixing which is the main characteristic in Brazil and
> in a
> > > > great part of Latin America...
> > > > >
> > > > > The pride in killing people with firearms...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards, Carlos.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Cópia:
> > > > >
> > > > > Data:Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:56:38 -0000
> > > > >
> > > > > Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: CWL AGAINST BLACK/INDIGENOUS
> > > PEOPLES
> > > > >
> > > > > > -I have no quest book , but the original from TPH Adyar
> > > > > > Other question:
> > > > > > If we read the conqueror stories of that Red
> Indians,Spains
> > > and
> > > > so
> > > > > > on who conquered South America,are they good civilized
> people?
> > > > > > Also the whites are not always, the only thing I can say
> > > > Leadbeater
> > > > > > better could not write is that the blank is the superior
> race.
> > > > > > That is not at all.
> > > > > > Christina
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "'Cuervo'" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Carlos - Christina et al -
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The publishing policy at Quest Books initiated by Helen
> > > Zahara
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > she came around 1970 was to edit out all negative racial
> and
> > > > > > ethnic
> > > > > > > comments, especially in the writings of Leadbeater,
> though I
> > > > think
> > > > > > > also in Jinarajadasa's introductory book on Theosophy.
> There
> > > > are
> > > > > > > examples in most of CWL's writings, but it is difficult
> to
> > > > find
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > originals of some to compare with.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ken
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Christina,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Please look at the pages 167 and 168 of your "The
> Perfume
> > > of
> > > > > > > Egypt", TPH 1978 edition, and you will find these
> quotations
> > > > which
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > comment below:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ooooooooo
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Leadbeater says about "red indians":
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Of these many tribes had adopted a kind of squalid
> > > > > > civilization,
> > > > > > > but many others were still savages untamed and
> untamable ?
> > > men
> > > > who
> > > > > > > regarded work of any kind as the deepest degradation ?
> who
> > > > hated
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > white man with a traditional, unrelenting hatred, and
> > > (strange
> > > > as
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > may seen) more than reciprocated the boundless contempt
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > blue-
> > > > > > > blooded hidalgo of Spain. It will be no doubt
> > > incomprehensible
> > > > to
> > > > > > > many of us that a half-naked savage can entertain any
> other
> > > > > > feeling
> > > > > > > than envy for our superior civilization, however much he
> may
> > > > > > dislike
> > > > > > > us; but I can only say that the quite genuine and
> unaffected
> > > > > > feeling
> > > > > > > of the Red Indian towards the white man is pure and
> > > > unmitigated
> > > > > > > contempt."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But CWL proceeds (p. 168) to develop his unbrotherly
> view
> > > of
> > > > > > human
> > > > > > > beings:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Then came the negro race ? no inconsiderable portion
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > > populations, and chiefly in a state of slavery, though
> the
> > > > > > > Government was doing all in its power to remove that
> curse
> > > > from
> > > > > > its
> > > > > > > territories; and last and worst came what were called
> the
> > > half-
> > > > > > > breeds or half-castes ? a mixed race which seemed, as
> mixed
> > > > races
> > > > > > > sometimes do, to combine all the worst qualities of both
> its
> > > > > > parent
> > > > > > > stocks. Indians, Spaniards, and Negro alike despised
> them;
> > > and
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > in turn regarded all alike with a virulent hatred."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We can see in these words some strong `pioneer
> elements'
> > > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > > future ideologies of Nazism and Fascism, and ultimately
> for
> > > > the
> > > > > > mass-
> > > > > > > murder attemtps of "ethnic cleansing". Look at it again:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > " (...) and last and worst came what were called the
> half-
> > > > breeds
> > > > > > > or half-castes ? a mixed race which seemed (...) to
> combine
> > > > all
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > worst qualities of both its parent stocks."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is Leadbeater.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Brazil has been from the very beginning a
> miscigenation
> > > > people
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > indigenous people here never present resintence or hated
> the
> > > > white
> > > > > > > people. Their culture was too primitive for that, say.
> We
> > > have
> > > > > > never
> > > > > > > had important racial tensions or hatred in Brazil, aas
> such,
> > > > > > though
> > > > > > > there was social violence.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Miscigenation is part of the preparation for the next
> sub-
> > > > race,
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > HPB writes in the "Secret Doctrine".
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regards, Carlos.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Para:"theos-talk" theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cópia:"carlosaveline" carlosaveline@
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Data:Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:00:40 -0300
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World CWL AGAINST BLACK AND
> > > INDIGENOUS
> > > > > > PEOPLES
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dear Friends,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This is about Bishop Leadbeater and his imaginary
> > > > adventures
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > South America.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > C. Jinarajadasa believed he was there with
> Leadbeater in
> > > a
> > > > > > > previous body, and that he was his biological younger
> > > brother,
> > > > who
> > > > > > > was allegedly killed and 'rediscovered' by CWL in
> Ceylon.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In fact, in a footnote to his autobiographical
> Postface
> > > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > > book "The Seven Veils of Consciousness", C. Jinarajadasa
> > > > states
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > that the true story of his own "previous (and glorious)
> > > death
> > > > in
> > > > > > > Brazil" is narrated in the chapter "Saved by a Ghost",
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > > book "The Perfume of Egypt" (2).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > C.J. believed everything CWL said, and he also
> writes in
> > > > the
> > > > > > > note that the same old silver crucifix which is
> mentioned in
> > > > that
> > > > > > > story was in his possession, as he wrote "The Seven
> Veils of
> > > > > > > Consciousness".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As to Leadbeater, in the preface of his 'The Perfume
> of
> > > > > > Egypt",
> > > > > > > he makes a solemn statement:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "The stories in this book happen to be true."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Along "Saved By a Ghost", the longest story of the
> > > volume,
> > > > > > > Leadbeater proudly describes how he killed numerous
> black
> > > > people
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > indigenous people in South America during his youth.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Of course, common sense says that the story is as
> > > illusory
> > > > as
> > > > > > > the visits Leabeater made to physical plane
> civilizations in
> > > > Mars
> > > > > > > and Mercury.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But even if it were presented as a `short novel'
> pure
> > > and
> > > > > > > simple, and not as an autobiographical narration, the
> > > content
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > text reveals too much of racism and disrespect against
> black
> > > > > > people,
> > > > > > > indigenous people and their right to live. Leadbeater
> also
> > > > uses
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > term "race" not in its theosophical meaning, but in the
> > > > > > > nationalistic way, as if each country had its
> own 'race',
> > > > > > > anticipating what Adolf Hitler would do decades later.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > At p. 167 of the Adyar edition, one starts to read
> his
> > > > > > > description of Brazilian people:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "First came the descendants of Spanish and
> Portuguese
> > > > > > > conquerors ? a haughty, indolent race; a race courtly
> and
> > > > > > > hospitable, by no means without its good qualities, but
> yet
> > > > one
> > > > > > > whose strongest characteristic was an immeasurable
> contempt
> > > > (or
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > affectation of it) for all other races whatsoever".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The amount of illusions-per-line is outstanding
> here.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > First, Spanish people were never `conquerors' in
> Brazil.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > country was `discovered' and made a colony by Portugal.
> > > > Second,
> > > > > > > Portuguese people are not a race; and they cannot be
> easily
> > > > > > > described as `indolent'. Third, Portuguese people
> generaly
> > > did
> > > > not
> > > > > > > show `contempt' for other `races', and it is for this
> reason
> > > > that
> > > > > > > miscigenation ? intermarriage ? was from the first the
> main
> > > > > > > anthropological characteristic of the emerging Brazilian
> > > > nation.
> > > > > > > Portuguese people easily created strong personal links
> with
> > > > black
> > > > > > > people and indigenous people. (Of course, colonization
> was
> > > > also
> > > > > > > violent.)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In the next paragraph, "bishop" Leadbeater is even
> more
> > > > > > > surprising:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Next came red indians".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Well, there are no `red indians' in Brazil, although
> the
> > > > term
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > very common in old North American Far West bang-bang
> > > stories,
> > > > in
> > > > > > > which hundreds of "bad" Indians get typically killed by
> a
> > > few
> > > > > > white
> > > > > > > men usually presented as brave heros.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Leadbeater says about "red indians":
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Of these many tribes had adopted a kind of squalid
> > > > > > > civilization, but many others were still savages untamed
> and
> > > > > > > untamable ? men who regarded work of any kind as the
> deepest
> > > > > > > degradation ? who hated the white man with a
> traditional,
> > > > > > > unrelenting hatred, and (strange as it may seen) more
> than
> > > > > > > reciprocated the boundless contempt of the blue-blooded
> > > > hidalgo of
> > > > > > > Spain. It will be no doubt incomprehensible to many of
> us
> > > that
> > > > a
> > > > > > > half-naked savage can entertain any other feeling than
> envy
> > > > for
> > > > > > our
> > > > > > > superior civilization, however much he may dislike us;
> but I
> > > > can
> > > > > > > only say that the quite genuine and unaffected feeling
> of
> > > the
> > > > Red
> > > > > > > Indian towards the white man is pure and unmitigated
> > > > contempt."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What are the problems in these few lines? First,
> again
> > > > comes
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > Spanish `hidalgo' (nobleman) apparently ruling Brazil, a
> > > > country
> > > > > > > which was independent from Portugal (not Spain), since
> 1822,
> > > > and
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > never under any "Spanish' ruling class. Second, the `red
> > > > Indian'
> > > > > > > again. Third, indigenous people and did not express hate
> > > > against
> > > > > > > white people, and never actively resisted the domination
> of
> > > > > > European
> > > > > > > rulers in Brazil. These two paragraphs simply can't
> refer to
> > > > any
> > > > > > > South American country.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But CWL proceeds (p. 168) to develop his unbrotherly
> > > view
> > > > of
> > > > > > > human beings:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Then came the negro race ? no inconsiderable
> portion of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > populations, and chiefly in a state of slavery, though
> the
> > > > > > > Government was doing all in its power to remove that
> curse
> > > > from
> > > > > > its
> > > > > > > territories; and last and worst came what were called
> the
> > > half-
> > > > > > > breeds or half-castes ? a mixed race which seemed, as
> mixed
> > > > races
> > > > > > > sometimes do, to combine all the worst qualities of both
> its
> > > > > > parent
> > > > > > > stocks. Indians, Spaniards, and Negro alike despised
> them;
> > > and
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > in turn regarded all alike with a virulent hatred."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We can see in these words some strong `pioneer
> elements'
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > future ideologies of Nazism and Fascism, and ultimately
> for
> > > > the
> > > > > > mass-
> > > > > > > murder attemtps of "ethnic cleansing". Look at it again:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > " (...) and last and worst came what were called the
> > > half-
> > > > > > breeds
> > > > > > > or half-castes ? a mixed race which seemed (...) to
> combine
> > > > all
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > worst qualities of both its parent stocks."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This is Leadbeater.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But -- what about Theosophy? What does esoteric
> > > philosophy
> > > > > > > really say about the relations between rich and poor
> nations
> > > > and
> > > > > > > among all different ethnical groups, with their varied
> kinds
> > > > of
> > > > > > > colours in the skin? In the "Letters from the Masters",
> the
> > > > famous
> > > > > > > letter known as coming from the "Great Master" says:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "To achieve the proposed object, a greater, a wiser,
> and
> > > > > > > especially a more benevolent intermingling of the high
> and
> > > the
> > > > > > low,
> > > > > > > of the Alpha and the Omega of Society, was determined
> upon.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > white race must be the first to stretch out the hand of
> > > > fellowship
> > > > > > > to the dark nations, to call the poor despised `nigger'
> > > > brother.
> > > > > > > This prospect may not smile to all, but he is no
> Theosophist
> > > > who
> > > > > > > objects to his principle" (2)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One can only conclude, then, that in writing that
> > > > paragraph
> > > > > > > Leadbeater was "no theosophist".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In fact, Leadbeater's vision of human beings as
> > > presented
> > > > in
> > > > > > > that long story is not only ethically and culturally
> > > > unacceptable.
> > > > > > > It is also legally criminal, for racism and stimulation
> of
> > > > hatred
> > > > > > > among people of different skin-colours has been defined
> as
> > > > crime
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > Brazil a few years ago.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One can understand why the Brazilian edition
> of "Saved
> > > By
> > > > a
> > > > > > > Ghost" cannot be found in Brazilian bookshops any
> longer.
> > > Yet
> > > > it
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > still for sale at Adyar, it seems.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ( In another posting, I should refer to Leadbeater's
> > > > proudly
> > > > > > > alleged acts of violence leading to death, which, even
> if
> > > seen
> > > > as
> > > > > > > fictional, are profoundly untheosophical. )
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best regards, Carlos.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > NOTE:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > (1) "The Perfume of Egypt", by C. W. Leadbeater,
> whose
> > > > sixth
> > > > > > > edition (TPH Adyar, 265 pp.) is dated 1978.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > (2) "Letters From the Masters of the Wisdom",
> compiled
> > > by
> > > > C.
> > > > > > > Jinarajadasa, Adyar TPH, first series, Letter number
> one,
> > > > known
> > > > > > > as `the Maha-Chohan Letter' or "the Great Master
> Letter'.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam
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> > > > > > Terra.
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> > >
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