Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt00653)

Carl,

I did not see any clear bibliographical reference, so far, as to the polemical idea that HPB was involved with the Golden Dawn.

My references say the GD tried to infiltrate the movement and later on may have inspired Leadbeater with his straange combination of "sex and occultism".

Again, this is my viewpoint and this is a dialogue.

I might be wrong since these details do not belong to may focus of research. 

Carlos. 

De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Sat, 11 Nov 2006 16:19:44 -0000

Assunto:Theos-World Re: HPB Against Golden Dawn

> Carlos,
> Her are my answer and comments, on your two questions and commentary:
> 
> 1. "When did she change such a rule to allow members of her Esoteric 
> School to be
> members of the Golden Down?"
> Answer; 1889
> 2. "What is the bibliographical reference for that, if any, please?"
> Answer; Read al posting first, hence I have her already answered 
> that. And what do you mean with "if any". Here we go again. 
> Everything that you for same reasons don't happen to like, you 
> question. 
> 3. "I am not at library, but I don't remember seeing such a 
> permission in the Volume XII of HPB's Collected Writings. As long 
> aas I know, she gave that permision and was, on the contrary, 
> worried about the mnovement being infiltrated y Golden Dawn, which 
> may have inspired C.W. Leadbeater with mixing 'sex and occultism'. 
> But these are but questions, as this is not my 'main area' of 
> research."
> Answer; Do you think every thing, that has any thing to do with the 
> ES, is to be fined in BCW vol. XII? About TS was "infiltrated" by 
> GDs, I say BS. Way do you think HPB made the founder and Head of GD 
> a member of IG, if she was "worried about" "infiltration?
> And CWL hade nothing to do with GD, so keep him out.
> And on what you also said; "As far as I am concerned, Golden Dawn 
> people could have used her name 'in vain' after May 1891, with 
> supposed letters from her, ascribed to previous dates".
> That shows very clear that you once more have to look up the history 
> of GD, hence they never used her name, and there exists no letters 
> from her in GD matters which later was "ascribed to previous dates". 
> 
> Carlos, before you in the future use the word "research", find out 
> what it really means and stands for. For it has nothing to do with 
> political revisionism! If now you believed that. 
> 
> Carl
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Carl,
> > 
> > You wrote: 
> > 
> > " (...) 8. In the original Book of Rules of the ES, it is said 
> that 
> > > membership in other esoteric organisations is forbidden for an 
> ES-
> > > members, with the exception of Masonry and Odd Fellow. This rule 
> > was later changed (by HPB), so it also permitter membership in 
> the GD. Way?"
> > 
> > I submit you two questions and a commentary: 
> > 
> > "When did she change such a rule to allow members of her Esoteric 
> School to be members of the Golden Down? What is the 
> bibliographical reference for that, if any, please? I am not at 
> library, but I dont remember seeing such a permission in the Volume 
> XII of HPB's Collected Writings. As long aas I know, she gave that 
> permision and was, on the contrary, worried about the mnovement 
> being infiltrated y Golden Dawn, which may have inspired C.W. 
> Leadbeater with mixing 'sex and occultism'. But these are but 
> questions, as this is not my 'main area' of research." 
> > 
> > As far as I am concerned, Golden Dawn people could have used her 
> name 'in vain' after May 1891, with supposed letters from her, 
> ascribed to previous dates -- just as C. W. Leadbeater proclaimed 
> himself a follower of her teachings. 
> > 
> > I will appreciate your commentaries.
> > 
> > (I have some bibliography on HPB versus Golden Dawn, I should look 
> at it once more.) 
> > 
> > Regards, Carlos. 
> > 
> > Carlos. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Cópia:
> > 
> > Data:Sat, 11 Nov 2006 01:19:15 -0000
> > 
> > Assunto:Theos-World Re: More on HPB's relations with ritualistic 
> groups
> > 
> > > Carl - I have reviewed a little Golden Dawn history and it is 
> > > certainly curious that "Fräulein Sprengel" ceased writing or 
> died in 
> > > the first half of 1891, approximately the same time as HPB. Are 
> any 
> > > of her letters extant where it could be possible to compare 
> > > handwriting, word usage and writing style ? Regarding Crowley's 
> > > commentary on HPB's 'Voice of the Silence', I have a copy, (as I 
> > > collect everything relating to the 'Voice'). For the first time 
> I 
> > > have now read through Crowley's comments - always some positive 
> and 
> > > then some negative comments regarding Blavatsky....(and alot 
> about 
> > > Crowley!) so far I do not see anything where he suggests HPB 
> > > was "Fräulein Sprengel" or connected to the 'Secret Chiefs' but 
> I 
> > > could have missed something. Do you know how many of the first 
> > > Golden Dawn members were also Theosophists ?
> > > 
> > > Ken
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Ek" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I think we all know quit well the history and activities of 
> and 
> > > > within the Golden Dawn, so I can't see any reason for giving 
> here 
> > > > any description or introduction on that order.
> > > > 
> > > > The GD was ruled by "Secret Chiefs", as I think you all know, 
> so 
> > > in 
> > > > concern to this I have some questions and claims that could be 
> > > > interesting to look closer on.
> > > > 
> > > > 1. Do we know any names of this "Secret Chiefs"?
> > > > 2. Who as the real "Fräulein Anna Sprengel"?
> > > > 3. What was the civil name of "the Greatly Honoured Soror 
> > > > Sapiens Dominabitur Astris", and was this "Fräulein Sprengel" 
> > > > name within the GD?
> > > > 4. Where was "Fräulein Sprengel" letter posted?
> > > > 5. Where was HPB when "Fräulein Sprengel" wrote her letters?
> > > > 6. Where lived "the Greatly Honoured Soror Sapiens Dominabitur 
> > > > Astris"?
> > > > 7. Who (it was probably one person) was behind the two GD-
> > > > nicknames "Madam Horus" and "the Swami"?
> > > > 8. In the original Book of Rules of the ES, it is said that 
> > > > membership in other esoteric organisations is forbidden for an 
> ES-
> > > > members, with the exception of Masonry and Odd Fellow. This 
> rule 
> > > was 
> > > > later changed (by HPB), so it also permitter membership in the 
> GD. 
> > > > Way?
> > > > 9. Did "Fräulein Sprengel" wrote in any other language, then 
> > > > English?
> > > > 
> > > > On some questions of the above question, we have answers:
> > > > 
> > > > 1. No for sure, but some can be sucpected.
> > > > 2. No for sure, but someone can be sucpected.
> > > > 3. Yes
> > > > 4. In Stuttgart, Würzburg and München.
> > > > 5. In Würzburg, Elberfeld, Ostende and London.
> > > > 6. Said to have lived in Bavaria and London.
> > > > 7. Not clear, but it was not HBP as some authors are claming, 
> > > > hence she faced trail in 1901 together with Mathers. But it 
> could 
> > > > have been another "Madam Horus" and "the Swami" that faced 
> trail 
> > > > with Mathers, hence I trust more the word of dog of guarding a 
> > > bone, 
> > > > then I trust Mathers.
> > > > 8. Could it be hence her self (HPB), WWW and thirty others TS 
> > > > and ES members was that? WWW and the thirty others we know for 
> > > sure.
> > > > 9. No, she did not.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > So was HPB the mysterious "the Greatly Honoured Soror Sapiens 
> > > > Dominabitur Astris"/"Fräulein Sprengel"? 
> > > > 
> > > > Three things could be said about this.
> > > > 1. It is a quit common opinion with in both TS Pasadena and 
> the 
> > > > ULT, that this is the fact.
> > > > 2. In his commentaries to The Voice of the Silence", "Liber 
> > > > LXXI" Crowley is saying that, and already on the titlepage. 
> > > > 3. Incidents are pointing in that direction (see above).
> > > > 
> > > > So are there any proven facts that HPB was a Secret Chief of 
> the 
> > > GD? 
> > > > Does anyone here know of any? Has any other author then 
> Crowley 
> > > said 
> > > > that she was?
> > > > 
> > > > Ok, Crowley is maybe not always the most trustworthy author, 
> by 
> > > has 
> > > > he any reason to lie in this matter? 
> > > > 
> > > > Carl
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
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