Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt00656)

Carlos,
Read;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/37329
And the rest of the postings on this subjects, and do think you 
could answer my questions. 

Carl

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> Carl,
> 
> I did not see any clear bibliographical reference, so far, as to 
the polemical idea that HPB was involved with the Golden Dawn.
> 
> My references say the GD tried to infiltrate the movement and 
later on may have inspired Leadbeater with his straange combination 
of "sex and occultism".
> 
> Again, this is my viewpoint and this is a dialogue.
> 
> I might be wrong since these details do not belong to may focus of 
research. 
> 
> Carlos. 
> 
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Cópia:
> 
> Data:Sat, 11 Nov 2006 16:19:44 -0000
> 
> Assunto:Theos-World Re: HPB Against Golden Dawn
> 
> > Carlos,
> > Her are my answer and comments, on your two questions and 
commentary:
> > 
> > 1. "When did she change such a rule to allow members of her 
Esoteric 
> > School to be
> > members of the Golden Down?"
> > Answer; 1889
> > 2. "What is the bibliographical reference for that, if any, 
please?"
> > Answer; Read al posting first, hence I have her already answered 
> > that. And what do you mean with "if any". Here we go again. 
> > Everything that you for same reasons don't happen to like, you 
> > question. 
> > 3. "I am not at library, but I don't remember seeing such a 
> > permission in the Volume XII of HPB's Collected Writings. As 
long 
> > aas I know, she gave that permision and was, on the contrary, 
> > worried about the mnovement being infiltrated y Golden Dawn, 
which 
> > may have inspired C.W. Leadbeater with mixing 'sex and 
occultism'. 
> > But these are but questions, as this is not my 'main area' of 
> > research."
> > Answer; Do you think every thing, that has any thing to do with 
the 
> > ES, is to be fined in BCW vol. XII? About TS was "infiltrated" 
by 
> > GDs, I say BS. Way do you think HPB made the founder and Head of 
GD 
> > a member of IG, if she was "worried about" "infiltration?
> > And CWL hade nothing to do with GD, so keep him out.
> > And on what you also said; "As far as I am concerned, Golden 
Dawn 
> > people could have used her name 'in vain' after May 1891, with 
> > supposed letters from her, ascribed to previous dates".
> > That shows very clear that you once more have to look up the 
history 
> > of GD, hence they never used her name, and there exists no 
letters 
> > from her in GD matters which later was "ascribed to previous 
dates". 
> > 
> > Carlos, before you in the future use the word "research", find 
out 
> > what it really means and stands for. For it has nothing to do 
with 
> > political revisionism! If now you believed that. 
> > 
> > Carl
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Carl,
> > > 
> > > You wrote: 
> > > 
> > > " (...) 8. In the original Book of Rules of the ES, it is said 
> > that 
> > > > membership in other esoteric organisations is forbidden for 
an 
> > ES-
> > > > members, with the exception of Masonry and Odd Fellow. This 
rule 
> > > was later changed (by HPB), so it also permitter membership in 
> > the GD. Way?"
> > > 
> > > I submit you two questions and a commentary: 
> > > 
> > > "When did she change such a rule to allow members of her 
Esoteric 
> > School to be members of the Golden Down? What is the 
> > bibliographical reference for that, if any, please? I am not at 
> > library, but I dont remember seeing such a permission in the 
Volume 
> > XII of HPB's Collected Writings. As long aas I know, she gave 
that 
> > permision and was, on the contrary, worried about the mnovement 
> > being infiltrated y Golden Dawn, which may have inspired C.W. 
> > Leadbeater with mixing 'sex and occultism'. But these are but 
> > questions, as this is not my 'main area' of research." 
> > > 
> > > As far as I am concerned, Golden Dawn people could have used 
her 
> > name 'in vain' after May 1891, with supposed letters from her, 
> > ascribed to previous dates -- just as C. W. Leadbeater 
proclaimed 
> > himself a follower of her teachings. 
> > > 
> > > I will appreciate your commentaries.
> > > 
> > > (I have some bibliography on HPB versus Golden Dawn, I should 
look 
> > at it once more.) 
> > > 
> > > Regards, Carlos. 
> > > 
> > > Carlos. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > 
> > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > 
> > > Cópia:
> > > 
> > > Data:Sat, 11 Nov 2006 01:19:15 -0000
> > > 
> > > Assunto:Theos-World Re: More on HPB's relations with 
ritualistic 
> > groups
> > > 
> > > > Carl - I have reviewed a little Golden Dawn history and it 
is 
> > > > certainly curious that "Fräulein Sprengel" ceased writing or 
> > died in 
> > > > the first half of 1891, approximately the same time as HPB. 
Are 
> > any 
> > > > of her letters extant where it could be possible to compare 
> > > > handwriting, word usage and writing style ? Regarding 
Crowley's 
> > > > commentary on HPB's 'Voice of the Silence', I have a copy, 
(as I 
> > > > collect everything relating to the 'Voice'). For the first 
time 
> > I 
> > > > have now read through Crowley's comments - always some 
positive 
> > and 
> > > > then some negative comments regarding Blavatsky....(and alot 
> > about 
> > > > Crowley!) so far I do not see anything where he suggests HPB 
> > > > was "Fräulein Sprengel" or connected to the 'Secret Chiefs' 
but 
> > I 
> > > > could have missed something. Do you know how many of the 
first 
> > > > Golden Dawn members were also Theosophists ?
> > > > 
> > > > Ken
> > > > 
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Ek" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I think we all know quit well the history and activities 
of 
> > and 
> > > > > within the Golden Dawn, so I can't see any reason for 
giving 
> > here 
> > > > > any description or introduction on that order.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The GD was ruled by "Secret Chiefs", as I think you all 
know, 
> > so 
> > > > in 
> > > > > concern to this I have some questions and claims that 
could be 
> > > > > interesting to look closer on.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 1. Do we know any names of this "Secret Chiefs"?
> > > > > 2. Who as the real "Fräulein Anna Sprengel"?
> > > > > 3. What was the civil name of "the Greatly Honoured Soror 
> > > > > Sapiens Dominabitur Astris", and was this "Fräulein 
Sprengel" 
> > > > > name within the GD?
> > > > > 4. Where was "Fräulein Sprengel" letter posted?
> > > > > 5. Where was HPB when "Fräulein Sprengel" wrote her 
letters?
> > > > > 6. Where lived "the Greatly Honoured Soror Sapiens 
Dominabitur 
> > > > > Astris"?
> > > > > 7. Who (it was probably one person) was behind the two GD-
> > > > > nicknames "Madam Horus" and "the Swami"?
> > > > > 8. In the original Book of Rules of the ES, it is said 
that 
> > > > > membership in other esoteric organisations is forbidden 
for an 
> > ES-
> > > > > members, with the exception of Masonry and Odd Fellow. 
This 
> > rule 
> > > > was 
> > > > > later changed (by HPB), so it also permitter membership in 
the 
> > GD. 
> > > > > Way?
> > > > > 9. Did "Fräulein Sprengel" wrote in any other language, 
then 
> > > > > English?
> > > > > 
> > > > > On some questions of the above question, we have answers:
> > > > > 
> > > > > 1. No for sure, but some can be sucpected.
> > > > > 2. No for sure, but someone can be sucpected.
> > > > > 3. Yes
> > > > > 4. In Stuttgart, Würzburg and München.
> > > > > 5. In Würzburg, Elberfeld, Ostende and London.
> > > > > 6. Said to have lived in Bavaria and London.
> > > > > 7. Not clear, but it was not HBP as some authors are 
claming, 
> > > > > hence she faced trail in 1901 together with Mathers. But 
it 
> > could 
> > > > > have been another "Madam Horus" and "the Swami" that faced 
> > trail 
> > > > > with Mathers, hence I trust more the word of dog of 
guarding a 
> > > > bone, 
> > > > > then I trust Mathers.
> > > > > 8. Could it be hence her self (HPB), WWW and thirty others 
TS 
> > > > > and ES members was that? WWW and the thirty others we know 
for 
> > > > sure.
> > > > > 9. No, she did not.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > So was HPB the mysterious "the Greatly Honoured Soror 
Sapiens 
> > > > > Dominabitur Astris"/"Fräulein Sprengel"? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Three things could be said about this.
> > > > > 1. It is a quit common opinion with in both TS Pasadena 
and 
> > the 
> > > > > ULT, that this is the fact.
> > > > > 2. In his commentaries to The Voice of the 
Silence", "Liber 
> > > > > LXXI" Crowley is saying that, and already on the 
titlepage. 
> > > > > 3. Incidents are pointing in that direction (see above).
> > > > > 
> > > > > So are there any proven facts that HPB was a Secret Chief 
of 
> > the 
> > > > GD? 
> > > > > Does anyone here know of any? Has any other author then 
> > Crowley 
> > > > said 
> > > > > that she was?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Ok, Crowley is maybe not always the most trustworthy 
author, 
> > by 
> > > > has 
> > > > > he any reason to lie in this matter? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Carl
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente 
Terra.
> > > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite
> > > > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?
> > 
+_u=carlosaveline&_l=1,1163208675.548348.8719.ambrose.hst.terra.com.b
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> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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