Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt00323)

Carlos,

You say:
"The Jesuits have almost always been most influential (and 'loyal') 
as to the Popes."

I say; not true.

"The Suppression of the Jesuits in Portugal, France, the Two 
Sicilies, Parma and the Spanish Empire by 1767 was troubling to the 
Society's defender, Pope Clement XIII. Following a decree signed by 
Pope Clement XIV under secular pressure in July 1773, the Jesuits 
were suppressed in all countries except Russia, where Catherine the 
Great had forbidden the papal decree to be promulgated. Because 
millions of Catholics (including many Jesuits) lived in the Polish 
western provinces of the Russian Empire, the Society was able to 
maintain its legal existence and carry on its work all through the 
period of suppression."
				From" 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits
See further:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14086a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14099a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14081a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14096a.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Jesuits

"Jesuits have had significant influence in the development of 
liberation theology, a movement which has been highly controversial 
in the Catholic theological community and condemned by Pope John 
Paul II on several fundamental aspects."

				From: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits


"In April 2005, Thomas J. Reese, SJ, editor of the American Jesuit 
weekly magazine America, resigned at the request of the Society. The 
move was widely published in the media as the result of pressure 
from the Vatican, following years of criticism by the Congregation 
for the Doctrine of the Faith on articles touching subjects such as 
HIV/AIDS, religious pluralism, homosexuality and the right of life 
for the unborn. Reese is currently on a year-long sabbatical at 
Santa Clara University.

On February 2, 2006, Fr. Peter Hans Kolvenbach, informed members of 
the Society of Jesus, that with the consent of Pope Benedict XVI, he 
intends to step down as Superior General in 2008, the year he will 
turn 80. The 35th General Congregation of the Society of Jesus that 
will elect a new superior general, and decide other important policy 
for the Jesuit order in the years to come, will convene on 5 January 
2008, in Rome."

				From: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits


"The Jesuits have frequently been described by their enemies (both 
Catholic and Protestant) as engaged in various conspiracies. The 
Monita secreta, published 1614 in Kraków, allegedly written by 
Claudio Acquaviva, in reality by Jerome Zahorowski, were fabricated 
to expose such a conspiracy. They have also been accused of using 
casuistry to obtain justifications for the unjustifiable. In several 
languages, "Jesuit" or "Jesuitical" therefore acquired a secondary 
meaning of "devious." The Jesuits have also been targeted by many 
anti-Catholics like Jack Chick, Avro Manhattan, and Alberto Rivera. 
Among other things they point to the text of an extreme oath 
allegedly taken by advanced members of the order, which can be 
construed to justify any action including infiltration of other 
faiths as legitimate in the name of the "greater good." The Jesuits 
have been accused of murdering Popes and presidents, causing wars, 
and toppling governments. There is also a claim common among many 
anti-Catholics that the Jesuit Superior General rules the Vatican 
behind the scenes.

Within the Catholic Church, some Jesuits are criticized by some 
parties for being overly liberal and deviating substantially from 
official Church teaching and papal directives, especially on such 
issues as abortion, priestly celibacy, homosexuality, and liberation 
theology.[13] Pope Benedict XVI, like his predecessor John Paul II, 
has been particularly critical of the order.[14] Indeed, it is not 
unusual, especially in more conservative Catholic outlets, to hear 
calls for the outright abolishment of the Jesuit order. Thus, some 
may argue that the future influence of the Jesuits in the Catholic 
community, and perhaps their very existence, remains uncertain, 
while others may note that the Jesuit Order is well established in 
the Church and the communities where they intervene."

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits#Controversies

See further:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?
xml=/news/2005/05/08/wjes08.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/05/08/ixworld.html
http://www.cwnews.com/offtherecord/offtherecord.cfm?
task=singledisplay&recnum=2627
http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz031302.asp
http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz031302.asp
http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/081100/081100e.htm
http://www.sspx.ca/Angelus/1984_November/Pope_Jesuits.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/pope/obit/theo_authority.shtml

In a review of "The Pope and the Jesuits" by James Hitchcock by 
Father Philip M. Stark we read:
"The outline of the book is simple. After a brief glance, we see 
Pope John Paul II putting his own representative (an Italian Jesuit) 
at the head of the Order until a new superior general can be elected 
to replace the permanently incapacitated Father Pedro Arrupe. There 
was great indignation in the ranks when this happened, I well 
remember. I also remember thinking how ironic it was that resentment 
should be directed at a Pope who was worried enough about the 
activities of the Order to intervene in its government?the very 
Order founded to give unquestioning obedience to the Holy See. It 
seemed like treason to think it, but I thought it: the Jesuits have 
lost sight of the reason for their existence. Professor Hitchcock 
has now confirmed that impression for me."
From: http://www.sspx.ca/Angelus/1984_November/Pope_Jesuits.htm
"I must add, as a parenthesis, that reading this painful record of 
the trouble the Jesuits are giving poor Pope John Paul has given me 
a new respect for him."

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> Carl,
> 
> 
> You say: 
> 
> " I can see that you are not a Mason, and therefore you have a 
good 
>  reason to not know real Meaning of Freemasonry."
> 
> I say:
> 
> "I am not.  But about it I know for a fact more than I feel at 
ease to write about in Theos-talk; so please do not jump to final 
conclusions."
> 
> You say: 
> 
> "I know HPB said that Freemasonry was infiltrated by the Jesuits, 
but this has nothing to do with the Vatican, hence the Vatican and 
Jesuits often don't like one another." 
> 
> I say:
> 
> "Not true.  The Jesuits have almost  always been most influential 
(and 'loyal') as to the Popes.  They have worked as the Popes'  CIA 
or 'M.I. 5', say.   HPB wrote about that. Anyway, the true fact 
remains that the Masonry has been utterly infiltrated by its 
enemies;  and by HPB's enemies;  although individual Masons, 
including some influential ones, were real Occultists amid the bad 
stuff; id est,  the exception to the rule. "
> 
> As to living in a "Catholic" country -- again this is jumping and 
personalizing conclusions.  
> 
> In order to illustrate that, I will tell you that I was never 
baptized in any Church, Christian or otherwise, in this lifetime, 
which is more than many people can say about their ' original non-
churchianity'.  And never believed in any Christian "God", too. 
> 
> Try to think impersonally, please. Personalistic projections end 
up by making the game of you-know-whom (lower level elementals) . 
> 
> I see you as a sincere truth-seeker and I respect you for that. 
> 
> We are exchanging views.  Neither of us is the truth-owner, I 
guess, on any subject. We are searching for a better understanding 
of life. 
> 
> 
> Carlos.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Cópia:
> 
> Data:Sat, 04 Nov 2006 16:36:12 -0000
> 
> Assunto:Theos-World Re: CEREMONIALISM and HPB
> 
> > Carlos,
> > 
> > I can see that you are not a Mason, and therefore you have a 
good 
> > reason to not know real Meaning of Freemasonry.
> > 
> > Second, please, stop talk about Leadbeater in these matters. He 
has 
> > nothing to do in a serious discussion. 
> > 
> > And further. You writ; "the Masonry was so heavily and
> > freely infiltrated by the Vatican Jesuits centuries ago, as you 
> > certainly know
> > HPB says." I know she said that Freemasonry infiltrated by the 
> > Jesuits, but this has nothing to do with the Vatican, hence the 
> > Vatican and Jesuits often don't like one another. To 
say "heavily 
> > and freely" is to over react. There is only one know "Jesuit" 
(he 
> > was not even a real Jesuit, but something similar to a tertiary 
> > member, even if SJ don't have that officially), that have made a 
> > carrier in Masonry, and that was Magister Johann August Starck, 
> > active mason ca. 1750-70. This connection Jesuits ? Freemason is 
> > untrue, as the Nazis Freemasons ? Jews is untrue. That is al 
based, 
> > and with its routs, in Anti-Masonry (from low-church 
protestants, in 
> > the US). 
> > 
> > Carlos, I think you are mixing things up. This could be hence 
you 
> > are from a Catholic country, but no I'm only guessing. Ritual 
and 
> > ritual is not always the same thing.
> > 
> > You wrote; "Jesus, Buddha and Lao Tzu -- 2,500 years ago -- were 
> > already critical of their time ritualisms and sacerdotal 
> > hierarchies. So this thing is not 'entirely new'." On this is my 
> > comment that one find, what one is looking for.
> > 
> > And: "Still, I did not see HPB writing about ritualism, or 
defending 
> > it as a practice
> > for theosophists. Did you?" And still she wrote several rituals 
here 
> > self, fore the use in the ES, and let Olcott write rituals for 
TS. 
> > 
> > And: "I am generally friendly toward Masons, but I do not think 
> > there should be any
> > confusion between the theosophical movement and any Rites and 
> > Ritualisms,
> > masonic or otherwise.
> > 
> > These are two quite different movements..." 
> > 
> > As said above about to know real Meaning of Freemasonry. They 
are 
> > not as different as you may think (in Spirit). And I don't share 
> > your opinion on nether rituals, or your opinion on what 
Theosophy is 
> > saying about it. The problem is that Masonry, as HBP said, 
soulless 
> > without the Philosophy of the East, but still it the last 
reaming 
> > part of the Western Mystery Schools. One most see masonry as it 
> > really is, and what is it origin. And very, very few Masons know 
> > this today. (And the second thing is that the church (and more 
the 
> > protestant, then the catholic) partly has done great harm on 
> > Freemasonry.) This got very clear for me, with the help of 
> > Theosophy. Freemasonry has no occult secrets any more, but still 
> > some secrets, those one find in every true Brothers heart. And 
the 
> > Freemasons are the Guardians of a Tradition, the Western 
Initiatoric 
> > Tradition of the ancient Mystery School. 
> > 
> > And, Carlos, don forget. That to study Western Freemasonry is 
> > obligatory for every student in a Mystery School in the East, 
and 
> > for every Chela.
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > 
> > Carl
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra.
> > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite
> > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?
+_u=carlosaveline&_l=1,1162658970.532315.9433.almora.hst.terra.com.br
,6542,Des15,Des15
> > 
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> 
> 
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