Re: To Carl on the Movement Being Born Again
Nov 02, 2006 11:02 PM
by Carl Ek
Carlos,
Yes, I it is may opinion that she (Annie Besant) was very much
fooled. That pure woman was not "evil". She was manipulated, and
under control of dark forces.
In chapter 22 in H. P. Blavatsky and the Theosophical Movement by
Charles J. Ryan:
"Annie Besant was strongly impressed by the personality of the
Brahmanical representative, G. N. Chakravarti, and for many years
her opinions were colored by his point of view. W. Q. Judge watched
his growing ascendancy over her mind with anxiety, feeling that it
was not in harmony with H. P. Blavatsky's intense disapproval of the
methods of what she called "religions of pomp and gold." He became
more uneasy when, on Mrs. Besant's return to England with the party
that included Mr. Chakravarti, she prepared to go to India on a long
lecture-tour, and he warned her that it was not a propitious time to
go. Before leaving, she spent a short time in London during which
she saw a good deal of the Brahman, who left for India shortly
before she and the Countess Wachtmeister started for the Orient. A
vivid light is thrown upon this very critical time in the history of
the T.S. by Dr. Archibald Keightley, a most reliable student under
H.P.B. The following passage occurs in a long protest he made in
defense of Mr. Judge during the crisis of 1895. After giving
instances of Chakravarti's ability to throw glamour over individuals
or groups, he wrote:
I lived at Headquarters [London] during Mr. Chakravarti's visit
there and knew from Mrs. Besant, from him and from personal
observation, of his frequent magnetisation of Mrs. Besant. He said
that he did it to, "coordinate her bodies for work to be done." To a
physician and a student of occultism, the magnetisation of a woman
advanced to the critical age of mid-life, a vegetarian, an ascetic,
by a man, a meat-eater, one of full habit, large appetite and of
another and dark race, is not wise. The latter magnetism will
assuredly overcome the former, however excellent the intentions of
both persons. And I soon saw the mental effect of this in Mrs.
Besant's entire change of view, in other matters besides those of
H.P.B. and Mr. Judge. -- The Path, X, 99-100, June 1895. "
(http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-tm/hpbtm-22.htm)
And Dr. Franz Hartmann, a very honest man and faithful Theosophist,
described how she was hypnotized by Chakravarti.
I don't know what is your opinion of the 1900-letter to Besant from
K.H. But in that you may found more that supports this statement of
me.
Do you think that she after this treatment was controlling here own
thoughts, feelings and acts? I think you not know that hypnotism is
black magic. So have you ever heard of a person that is hypnotized,
who control its own thoughts, feelings and acts? Do you not think
she was an easy victim for Leadbeater, after this evil and horrible
treatment of Chakravarti?
During her last two and half year in live, she was suffering from
deep depressions, and was psychological instable. She was mentally
and spiritually very sick. This was caused by the treatments, of
Chakravarti and Leadbeater, she hade been a victim of, but also that
she was full of shame. She started to realise what big harm she
coursed the Society, and she did not even want talk to Leadbeater
her last year in live.
They influence of Leadbeater is very well described in the indeed
strange book "Investigations Into Early Rounds" by Annie Besant and
C.W. Leadbeater ("Olcott", Wheaton, 1942), published by C.
Jinarajadasa (as "O.H." of the Adyar E.S.T.). This is a protocol,
recorded by Jinarajadasa and Bertram Keightley, from 1896 during
a "séance". One can easily see how Leadbeater is leading Besant's
thoughts.
Carl
--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> Carl,
>
> A. Besant was fooled, yeah.
>
> Nowadays Ms. Radha tries to be honest -- yet she keeps the
falsehoods going on, possible because of a feeling of responsibility
for the continuation of the structure she honestly 'inherited'.
>
> There is a trend to renew things in the movement, though. I just
received a personal email correctly saying that the movement is
getting more and more "federational" and less "centralized".
>
> That's right I guess.
>
>
> Centralized structures are in decadence, while decentralized
structures are much better and rising. The movement is not dying --
it is changing and being born again... Within and without Adyar.
>
> There are lots of good people within the Adyar TS, and Ms. Radha
cannot be compared to John Algeo.
>
> But those parts of the movement which can see the importance of
HPB (and Judge) have something to say...
>
>
> Regards, Carlos.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>
> Cópia:
>
> Data:Thu, 02 Nov 2006 14:52:32 -0000
>
> Assunto:Theos-World Re: On the verb "To Claim"
>
> > Carlos,
> > I see your point, but I'm just following what my workbook is
saying.
> > And hence English is not my native language; I can, and do,
> > mistakes. The colour of the word, you know.
> >
> > Personally, I do believe Leadbeater (and Chakravarti) was in
> > contract whit Mahatmas/Masters, those we also call the Brethren
of
> > the Shadow.
> >
> > Besant I only feel sorry for, hence I don't think she lied; she
was
> > fooled be the two persons mentioned above.
> >
> > Carl
> >
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Carl,
> > >
> > > HPB did not claim she was in contact with the Masters as one
does
> > not "claim" that the Sun uses to rise, or that it appears to
rise
> > everyday (from the viewpoint of a citizen in our planet).
> > >
> > > HPB said she had contact with Adepts as one says the
Sun "rises"
> > everyday.
> > >
> > > Leadbeater claimed he was in contact with the Mahatmas.
> > >
> > > And Daniel Caldwell claims that "HPB might be a fraud". He has
> > been claiming that for a number of years, in case you do not
know,
> > Carl.
> > >
> > > Yet HPB students know better and say that HPB was NOT a fraud.
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards, Carlos.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Cópia:
> > >
> > > Data:Thu, 02 Nov 2006 13:56:41 -0000
> > >
> > > Assunto:Theos-World Re: MORE ON CLAIMS
> > >
> > > > I remember Blavatsky was claiming a lot.
> > > > Claim is a neutral word. Its only mean that someone is
saying
> > that
> > > > something is in a certain way, and word its self do not say
if
> > it is
> > > > right or wrong. So Blavatsky claimed, and so did Judge,
Crosbie,
> > > > Besant, Leadbeater, Julius Cesar, Karl Marx, I do it and
even
> > > > Carlos. And we do it al the time. When we say that we
believe
> > that
> > > > reincarnation is a fact in nature, we are actually claiming
> > this.
> > > >
> > > > And about the national section of the Pasadena TS. In an e-
mail,
> > > > last week, from a European TS-fellow with regular contacts
with
> > the
> > > > HQ in Pasadena it was written that the Finish Section was to
be
> > > > closed very soon. That makes nine sections. I see now that
this
> > > > section still is listed on Pasadena's webpage, but since
there
> > have
> > > > been none activities in any form many years, I can see way
it is
> > to
> > > > be closed. Sad, but the cold fact.
> > > >
> > > > Carl
> > > >
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Friends,
> > > > >
> > > > > I do not remember HPB "claiming" anything. Or Crosbie. Or
the
> > > > ULT.
> > > > >
> > > > > It was A. Besant who presented herself as an Adept -- HPB
> > rarely
> > > > or never stated that she was even a "Initiate".
> > > > >
> > > > > It was C.W. Leadbeater who claimed he had several
initiations,
> > > > visited Mars and Mercury and talked to "Mr.Christ" nearly
every
> > > > week. And this is in the Adyar literature -- with good
sources!
> > > > >
> > > > > It was Besant and CWL who claimed Krishnamurti was the new
> > > > Messiah, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It is the Coulombs who claimed HPB "claimed" this or that.
It
> > is
> > > > the Coulomb and Soloviof publicizers who 'claim' that
> > > > Crosbie 'claimed' this or that.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards, Carlos.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Cópia:
> > > > >
> > > > > Data:Thu, 02 Nov 2006 13:03:33 -0000
> > > > >
> > > > > Assunto:Theos-World Re: To Carl (& maybe Carlos) --- R.
> > Crosbie
> > > > Acting UNDER THE DIRECTION of a Master??
> > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Daniel for this interesting posting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Blavatsky claimed direct, and in no "cryptic ways, that
she
> > was
> > > > an
> > > > > > agent of the Masters, and acted on Their direct orders,
both
> > > > when
> > > > > > she founded the TS in 1875, and when she founded the
> > E.S.T.S. in
> > > > > > 1888. She said this straight out. But with Crosbie it
was
> > > > something
> > > > > > else.
> > > > > > Crosbie was saying that some one was "one Witness"
and "a
> > > > Represent"
> > > > > > of the Masters etc, but not that these one was him self.
> > After
> > > > his
> > > > > > death, that ULT-people was claiming that this was
Crosbie,
> > but
> > > > did
> > > > > > he ever claimed that him self? I don't know, and answer
is
> > most
> > > > > > probably hidden for the world in the archives of DES and
> > > > Theosophy
> > > > > > Company in Los Angeles. If not there is something in his
> > > > writhing,
> > > > > > that we have missed.
> > > > > > I'm just guessing now. Could there have been some one
else?
> > Was
> > > > > > Crosbie alone? The fact that Crosbie was married, with a
> > young
> > > > child
> > > > > > (as far as know, he only hade one daughter), was a
direct
> > > > > > disqualification for him, to be a Chela. Could he have
been
> > > > working
> > > > > > together with a Chela? How knows? The fact that the
official
> > > > history
> > > > > > of the ULT not is fully reliable does not make this
easier.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For some years ago, one group president of the DES told
me
> > that
> > > > they
> > > > > > (the DES) consider "H.P.B." as their "sole Head" (no
talk
> > there
> > > > > > about any I.H. or O.H., and their highest officer was
> > a "simple
> > > > > > Secretary", his words not mine), and that this was the
case
> > when
> > > > it
> > > > > > was founded (1909) and that this still is the case. If
we
> > take
> > > > this
> > > > > > by it word, it doesn't make sense. H.P.B. was the Master
> > S.B.
> > > > how
> > > > > > was the Head of the First Section, and not of the Second
> > Section
> > > > > > (the ES). Master M. was I.H. of the ES, and H.P.
Blavatsky
> > was
> > > > the
> > > > > > O.H. And if we believe the he was meaning H.P.
Blavatsky, it
> > > > still
> > > > > > doesn't make any sense. Only if H.P. Blavatsky today is
a
> > > > Master,
> > > > > > but then the ULT-people know something the rest of the
> > > > Theosophical
> > > > > > world doesn't know anything about.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I haven't seen much of the DES-material, but is there
> > something
> > > > that
> > > > > > not is to be found the material of Blavatsky's and
Judge's
> > EST,
> > > > or
> > > > > > not in common is known? If there is nothing, which I
think,
> > the
> > > > ULT-
> > > > > > people can say what they wants, for in a "new start" of
an
> > > > Esoteric
> > > > > > body, direct under the leadership of the Master, there
must
> > be
> > > > > > something. Further instructions or explanations etc. I
know
> > that
> > > > > > P.B. Wadia wrote new material for the DES, but I haven't
> > seen
> > > > this,
> > > > > > so I don't know that this is about.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > About claims within the ULT. One other thing is that
some
> > > > leading
> > > > > > ULT-associates are saying that Mr. Judge immediately
after
> > hid
> > > > death
> > > > > > took over the body after a young boy in New York City,
who
> > just
> > > > dead
> > > > > > in ammonia, and that this boy when he was older joined
the
> > ULT.
> > > > So
> > > > > > maybe this boy was the Chela Crosbie was working
together
> > whit?
> > > > Who
> > > > > > knows?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just said that "some leading ULT-associates" are
saying
> > this,
> > > > and
> > > > > > NOT that the ULT is saying it. So please, don't make me
to
> > > > repeat
> > > > > > this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carl
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "danielhcaldwell"
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To Carl (& maybe Carlos)---
> > > > > > > Robert Crosbie Acting UNDER THE DIRECTION of a Master??
> > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In 1887, H.P. Blavatsky wrote to Countess Constance
> > > > Wachtmeister
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > following:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "After a long conversation with Master....either I
have to
> > > > return
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > India to die . . . or I have to form ... a nucleus of
true
> > > > > > > Theosophists, a school of my own ... with as many
mystics
> > as I
> > > > can
> > > > > > > get to teach them...."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Later in Sept. 1888 in a letter to John Ransom Bridge,
HPB
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "...I am organizing...a special centre ... of
exclusively
> > > > occult
> > > > > > > students, willing to accept...the teachings of which I
am
> > the
> > > > > > channel
> > > > > > > and which I cannot impart except to pledged
members...."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In the "Preliminary Memorandum" issued in Dec. 1888,
one
> > finds
> > > > the
> > > > > > > following:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "The real Head of the Esoteric Section is a Master, of
> > whom
> > > > H.P.
> > > > > > > Blavatsky is the mouthpiece for this Section. He is
one of
> > > > those
> > > > > > > Adepts referred to in theosophical literature, and
> > concerned
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > formation of the Theosophical Society. It is through
H.P.
> > > > > > Blavatsky
> > > > > > > that each member of this section will be brought more
> > closely
> > > > than
> > > > > > > hitherto under His influence and care if found worthy
of
> > it."
> > > > > > > Quoted from:
> > > > http://www.katinkahesselink.net/esinstr.htm#prelim1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From the above, one sees that H.P. Blavatsky formed
the
> > > > Esoteric
> > > > > > > Section AT THE DIRECTION of the Master. And the Master
was
> > the
> > > > > > REAL
> > > > > > > Head of the Section and H.P. Blavatsky was the
MOUTHPIECE
> > of
> > > > this
> > > > > > > Master for the Section.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now consider what the historian Gregory Tillett has
> > written
> > > > about
> > > > > > > Robert Crosbie and the Dzyan Esoteric School:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Within the ULT a separate ES, claiming continuity
with
> > that
> > > > of
> > > > > > HPB,
> > > > > > > was established in 1909 with the title 'Dzyan Esoteric
> > > > School',
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > > it claimed was the proper title of the Second
[Esoteric]
> > > > Section
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > the Theosophical Society."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dr. Tillett also wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "The first DES group was established in Los Angeles by
> > Robert
> > > > > > Crosbie
> > > > > > > in November 1909...."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Quoted from:
> > > > > > > "DES", http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-
> > talk/message/36730
> > > > > > > Posted on Theos-Talk, Tues Oct 31, 2006, 1:19 pm
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Notice that Dr. Tillett writes that the DES claimed
> > CONTINUITY
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > the ES of HPB.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now ponder this:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If H.P. Blavatsky formed the Esoteric Section in 1888
> > UNDER
> > > > THE
> > > > > > > DIRECTION of her Master, then under WHOSE DIRECTION
did
> > Robert
> > > > > > > Crosbie form in 1909 the Dzyan Esoteric School?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And was there a Master who was actually the real Head
of
> > the
> > > > Dzyan
> > > > > > > Esoteric School?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And if H.P. Blavatsky was the MOUTHPIECE of her Master
for
> > the
> > > > > > > Esoteric Section, was Robert Crosbie the "mouthpiece"
of a
> > > > Master
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > the Dzyan Esoteric School?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > These questions seem very relevant and appropriate to
ask
> > in
> > > > light
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > what H.P. Blavatsky wrote and especially since Robert
> > Crosbie
> > > > > > himself
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "If, then, the true Theosophical Movement, and THE
TRUE
> > CHELAS
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > School of the Masters are NOT to be found among those
> > > > [persons,
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > example, Mrs. Besant and Mrs. Tingley] who have lost
the
> > point
> > > > of
> > > > > > > contact with the Masters, while yet loudly proclaiming
> > > > themselves
> > > > > > > Initiates and Outer and Inner Heads of this, that, and
the
> > > > other
> > > > > > > theosophical society and esoteric section, WHERE MAY
THEY
> > > > [ ...
> > > > > > THE
> > > > > > > TRUE CHELAS ...] BE DISCERNED? . . ." Theosophy, March
> > 1915.
> > > > > > caps
> > > > > > > added.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ". . . The various theosophical societies and esoteric
> > > > sections OF
> > > > > > > THE DAY are in no sense representative of the School
of
> > the
> > > > > > Masters
> > > > > > > or the Theosophical Movement. . . The Anciently
universal
> > > > Wisdom-
> > > > > > > Religion, the School of the Masters and the
Theosophical
> > > > Movement
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > in unbroken continuity of existence to-day as
> > always. . . ."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "NOW, as always, they have THEIR REPRESENTATIVES AND
> > AGENTS
> > > > AMONG
> > > > > > > MEN, who cannot be found out by any but those who have
> > earned
> > > > the
> > > > > > > right to know them. . . ." Theosophy, February 1915.
caps
> > > > added.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Since Crosbie founded this secret Dzyan Esoteric
School,
> > was
> > > > he
> > > > > > > himself a "true chela", a "representative" and "agent"
of
> > the
> > > > > > > Masters among men?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Especially since he had in so many words stated that
Mrs.
> > > > Besant,
> > > > > > > Mrs. Tingley, etc had "lost the point of contact with
the
> > > > > > Masters".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So was he NOW "the point of contact with the Masters"?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Also keep in mind that at his death, THEOSOPHY
magazine
> > > > proclaimed
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > no uncertain terms:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Robert Crosbie preserved unbroken the link of the
Second
> > > > > > [Esoteric]
> > > > > > > Section of the Theosophical Movement from the passing
of
> > Mr.
> > > > Judge
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > 1896, and in 1907 - just eleven years later - made
that
> > link
> > > > once
> > > > > > > more Four Square amongst men. In the year 1909 the
Third
> > > > Section
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > restored by the formation of the United Lodge of
> > > > Theosophists ...."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "...There is always one Witness on the scene. After
the
> > death
> > > > of
> > > > > > Mr.
> > > > > > > Judge, Robert Crosbie kept the link unbroken."
Theosophy
> > > > > > magazine,
> > > > > > > August, 1919.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Crosbie believed Judge was the agent and
representative of
> > the
> > > > > > > Masters when he was still alive. So if indeed Crosbie
kept
> > the
> > > > > > > [esoteric?] link unbroken after Mr. Judge's death, was
> > Crosbie
> > > > > > > really the "one Witness"? And what exactly does that
term
> > mean?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > one Witness = true Chela = Representative = Agent of
the
> > > > > > Masters ????
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Daniel
> > > > > > > http://hpb.cc
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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