Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt00136)

Carl,

A. Besant was fooled, yeah.

Nowadays Ms. Radha tries to be honest -- yet she keeps the falsehoods going on, possible because of a feeling of responsibility for the continuation of the structure she honestly 'inherited'.

There is a trend to renew things in the movement, though. I just received a personal email correctly saying that the movement is getting more and more "federational" and less "centralized".

That's right I guess. 


Centralized structures are in decadence, while decentralized structures are much better and rising.  The movement is not dying -- it is changing and being born again...   Within and without Adyar.  

There are lots of good people within the Adyar TS, and Ms. Radha cannot be compared to John Algeo. 

But those parts of the movement which can see the importance of HPB (and Judge) have something to say... 


Regards,  Carlos. 


 
 





De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Thu, 02 Nov 2006 14:52:32 -0000

Assunto:Theos-World Re: On the verb "To Claim"

> Carlos,
> I see your point, but I'm just following what my workbook is saying. 
> And hence English is not my native language; I can, and do, 
> mistakes. The colour of the word, you know.
> 
> Personally, I do believe Leadbeater (and Chakravarti) was in 
> contract whit Mahatmas/Masters, those we also call the Brethren of 
> the Shadow. 
> 
> Besant I only feel sorry for, hence I don't think she lied; she was 
> fooled be the two persons mentioned above. 
> 
> Carl 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Carl, 
> > 
> > HPB did not claim she was in contact with the Masters as one does 
> not "claim" that the Sun uses to rise, or that it appears to rise 
> everyday (from the viewpoint of a citizen in our planet). 
> > 
> > HPB said she had contact with Adepts as one says the Sun "rises" 
> everyday.
> > 
> > Leadbeater claimed he was in contact with the Mahatmas. 
> > 
> > And Daniel Caldwell claims that "HPB might be a fraud". He has 
> been claiming that for a number of years, in case you do not know, 
> Carl. 
> > 
> > Yet HPB students know better and say that HPB was NOT a fraud. 
> > 
> > 
> > Regards, Carlos. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Cópia:
> > 
> > Data:Thu, 02 Nov 2006 13:56:41 -0000
> > 
> > Assunto:Theos-World Re: MORE ON CLAIMS
> > 
> > > I remember Blavatsky was claiming a lot.
> > > Claim is a neutral word. Its only mean that someone is saying 
> that 
> > > something is in a certain way, and word its self do not say if 
> it is 
> > > right or wrong. So Blavatsky claimed, and so did Judge, Crosbie, 
> > > Besant, Leadbeater, Julius Cesar, Karl Marx, I do it and even 
> > > Carlos. And we do it al the time. When we say that we believe 
> that 
> > > reincarnation is a fact in nature, we are actually claiming 
> this. 
> > > 
> > > And about the national section of the Pasadena TS. In an e-mail, 
> > > last week, from a European TS-fellow with regular contacts with 
> the 
> > > HQ in Pasadena it was written that the Finish Section was to be 
> > > closed very soon. That makes nine sections. I see now that this 
> > > section still is listed on Pasadena's webpage, but since there 
> have 
> > > been none activities in any form many years, I can see way it is 
> to 
> > > be closed. Sad, but the cold fact. 
> > > 
> > > Carl
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Friends,
> > > > 
> > > > I do not remember HPB "claiming" anything. Or Crosbie. Or the 
> > > ULT. 
> > > > 
> > > > It was A. Besant who presented herself as an Adept -- HPB 
> rarely 
> > > or never stated that she was even a "Initiate". 
> > > > 
> > > > It was C.W. Leadbeater who claimed he had several initiations, 
> > > visited Mars and Mercury and talked to "Mr.Christ" nearly every 
> > > week. And this is in the Adyar literature -- with good sources! 
> > > > 
> > > > It was Besant and CWL who claimed Krishnamurti was the new 
> > > Messiah, etc.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > It is the Coulombs who claimed HPB "claimed" this or that. It 
> is 
> > > the Coulomb and Soloviof publicizers who 'claim' that 
> > > Crosbie 'claimed' this or that. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Regards, Carlos. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > 
> > > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > 
> > > > Cópia:
> > > > 
> > > > Data:Thu, 02 Nov 2006 13:03:33 -0000
> > > > 
> > > > Assunto:Theos-World Re: To Carl (& maybe Carlos) --- R. 
> Crosbie 
> > > Acting UNDER THE DIRECTION of a Master??
> > > > 
> > > > > Thanks Daniel for this interesting posting.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Blavatsky claimed direct, and in no "cryptic ways, that she 
> was 
> > > an 
> > > > > agent of the Masters, and acted on Their direct orders, both 
> > > when 
> > > > > she founded the TS in 1875, and when she founded the 
> E.S.T.S. in 
> > > > > 1888. She said this straight out. But with Crosbie it was 
> > > something 
> > > > > else. 
> > > > > Crosbie was saying that some one was "one Witness" and "a 
> > > Represent" 
> > > > > of the Masters etc, but not that these one was him self. 
> After 
> > > his 
> > > > > death, that ULT-people was claiming that this was Crosbie, 
> but 
> > > did 
> > > > > he ever claimed that him self? I don't know, and answer is 
> most 
> > > > > probably hidden for the world in the archives of DES and 
> > > Theosophy 
> > > > > Company in Los Angeles. If not there is something in his 
> > > writhing, 
> > > > > that we have missed.
> > > > > I'm just guessing now. Could there have been some one else? 
> Was 
> > > > > Crosbie alone? The fact that Crosbie was married, with a 
> young 
> > > child 
> > > > > (as far as know, he only hade one daughter), was a direct 
> > > > > disqualification for him, to be a Chela. Could he have been 
> > > working 
> > > > > together with a Chela? How knows? The fact that the official 
> > > history 
> > > > > of the ULT not is fully reliable does not make this easier. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > For some years ago, one group president of the DES told me 
> that 
> > > they 
> > > > > (the DES) consider "H.P.B." as their "sole Head" (no talk 
> there 
> > > > > about any I.H. or O.H., and their highest officer was 
> a "simple 
> > > > > Secretary", his words not mine), and that this was the case 
> when 
> > > it 
> > > > > was founded (1909) and that this still is the case. If we 
> take 
> > > this 
> > > > > by it word, it doesn't make sense. H.P.B. was the Master 
> S.B. 
> > > how 
> > > > > was the Head of the First Section, and not of the Second 
> Section 
> > > > > (the ES). Master M. was I.H. of the ES, and H.P. Blavatsky 
> was 
> > > the 
> > > > > O.H. And if we believe the he was meaning H.P. Blavatsky, it 
> > > still 
> > > > > doesn't make any sense. Only if H.P. Blavatsky today is a 
> > > Master, 
> > > > > but then the ULT-people know something the rest of the 
> > > Theosophical 
> > > > > world doesn't know anything about. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I haven't seen much of the DES-material, but is there 
> something 
> > > that 
> > > > > not is to be found the material of Blavatsky's and Judge's 
> EST, 
> > > or 
> > > > > not in common is known? If there is nothing, which I think, 
> the 
> > > ULT-
> > > > > people can say what they wants, for in a "new start" of an 
> > > Esoteric 
> > > > > body, direct under the leadership of the Master, there must 
> be 
> > > > > something. Further instructions or explanations etc. I know 
> that 
> > > > > P.B. Wadia wrote new material for the DES, but I haven't 
> seen 
> > > this, 
> > > > > so I don't know that this is about. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > About claims within the ULT. One other thing is that some 
> > > leading 
> > > > > ULT-associates are saying that Mr. Judge immediately after 
> hid 
> > > death 
> > > > > took over the body after a young boy in New York City, who 
> just 
> > > dead 
> > > > > in ammonia, and that this boy when he was older joined the 
> ULT. 
> > > So 
> > > > > maybe this boy was the Chela Crosbie was working together 
> whit? 
> > > Who 
> > > > > knows? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I just said that "some leading ULT-associates" are saying 
> this, 
> > > and 
> > > > > NOT that the ULT is saying it. So please, don't make me to 
> > > repeat 
> > > > > this. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Carl
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "danielhcaldwell" 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To Carl (& maybe Carlos)--- 
> > > > > > Robert Crosbie Acting UNDER THE DIRECTION of a Master??
> > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > In 1887, H.P. Blavatsky wrote to Countess Constance 
> > > Wachtmeister 
> > > > > the 
> > > > > > following:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "After a long conversation with Master....either I have to 
> > > return 
> > > > > to 
> > > > > > India to die . . . or I have to form ... a nucleus of true 
> > > > > > Theosophists, a school of my own ... with as many mystics 
> as I 
> > > can 
> > > > > > get to teach them...."
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Later in Sept. 1888 in a letter to John Ransom Bridge, HPB 
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "...I am organizing...a special centre ... of exclusively 
> > > occult 
> > > > > > students, willing to accept...the teachings of which I am 
> the 
> > > > > channel 
> > > > > > and which I cannot impart except to pledged members...."
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > In the "Preliminary Memorandum" issued in Dec. 1888, one 
> finds 
> > > the 
> > > > > > following: 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "The real Head of the Esoteric Section is a Master, of 
> whom 
> > > H.P. 
> > > > > > Blavatsky is the mouthpiece for this Section. He is one of 
> > > those 
> > > > > > Adepts referred to in theosophical literature, and 
> concerned 
> > > in 
> > > > > the 
> > > > > > formation of the Theosophical Society. It is through H.P. 
> > > > > Blavatsky 
> > > > > > that each member of this section will be brought more 
> closely 
> > > than 
> > > > > > hitherto under His influence and care if found worthy of 
> it." 
> > > > > > Quoted from: 
> > > http://www.katinkahesselink.net/esinstr.htm#prelim1
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > From the above, one sees that H.P. Blavatsky formed the 
> > > Esoteric 
> > > > > > Section AT THE DIRECTION of the Master. And the Master was 
> the 
> > > > > REAL 
> > > > > > Head of the Section and H.P. Blavatsky was the MOUTHPIECE 
> of 
> > > this 
> > > > > > Master for the Section.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Now consider what the historian Gregory Tillett has 
> written 
> > > about 
> > > > > > Robert Crosbie and the Dzyan Esoteric School:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "Within the ULT a separate ES, claiming continuity with 
> that 
> > > of 
> > > > > HPB, 
> > > > > > was established in 1909 with the title 'Dzyan Esoteric 
> > > School', 
> > > > > which 
> > > > > > it claimed was the proper title of the Second [Esoteric] 
> > > Section 
> > > > > of 
> > > > > > the Theosophical Society."
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Dr. Tillett also wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "The first DES group was established in Los Angeles by 
> Robert 
> > > > > Crosbie 
> > > > > > in November 1909...."
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Quoted from:
> > > > > > "DES", http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-
> talk/message/36730
> > > > > > Posted on Theos-Talk, Tues Oct 31, 2006, 1:19 pm
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Notice that Dr. Tillett writes that the DES claimed 
> CONTINUITY 
> > > > > with 
> > > > > > the ES of HPB.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Now ponder this:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > If H.P. Blavatsky formed the Esoteric Section in 1888 
> UNDER 
> > > THE 
> > > > > > DIRECTION of her Master, then under WHOSE DIRECTION did 
> Robert 
> > > > > > Crosbie form in 1909 the Dzyan Esoteric School?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > And was there a Master who was actually the real Head of 
> the 
> > > Dzyan 
> > > > > > Esoteric School?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > And if H.P. Blavatsky was the MOUTHPIECE of her Master for 
> the 
> > > > > > Esoteric Section, was Robert Crosbie the "mouthpiece" of a 
> > > Master 
> > > > > for 
> > > > > > the Dzyan Esoteric School?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > These questions seem very relevant and appropriate to ask 
> in 
> > > light 
> > > > > of 
> > > > > > what H.P. Blavatsky wrote and especially since Robert 
> Crosbie 
> > > > > himself 
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "If, then, the true Theosophical Movement, and THE TRUE 
> CHELAS 
> > > of 
> > > > > the 
> > > > > > School of the Masters are NOT to be found among those 
> > > [persons, 
> > > > > for 
> > > > > > example, Mrs. Besant and Mrs. Tingley] who have lost the 
> point 
> > > of 
> > > > > > contact with the Masters, while yet loudly proclaiming 
> > > themselves 
> > > > > > Initiates and Outer and Inner Heads of this, that, and the 
> > > other 
> > > > > > theosophical society and esoteric section, WHERE MAY THEY 
> > > [ ... 
> > > > > THE 
> > > > > > TRUE CHELAS ...] BE DISCERNED? . . ." Theosophy, March 
> 1915. 
> > > > > caps 
> > > > > > added.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ". . . The various theosophical societies and esoteric 
> > > sections OF 
> > > > > > THE DAY are in no sense representative of the School of 
> the 
> > > > > Masters 
> > > > > > or the Theosophical Movement. . . The Anciently universal 
> > > Wisdom- 
> > > > > > Religion, the School of the Masters and the Theosophical 
> > > Movement 
> > > > > are 
> > > > > > in unbroken continuity of existence to-day as 
> always. . . ."
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "NOW, as always, they have THEIR REPRESENTATIVES AND 
> AGENTS 
> > > AMONG 
> > > > > > MEN, who cannot be found out by any but those who have 
> earned 
> > > the 
> > > > > > right to know them. . . ." Theosophy, February 1915. caps 
> > > added.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Since Crosbie founded this secret Dzyan Esoteric School, 
> was 
> > > he 
> > > > > > himself a "true chela", a "representative" and "agent" of 
> the 
> > > > > > Masters among men? 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Especially since he had in so many words stated that Mrs. 
> > > Besant, 
> > > > > > Mrs. Tingley, etc had "lost the point of contact with the 
> > > > > Masters". 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > So was he NOW "the point of contact with the Masters"?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Also keep in mind that at his death, THEOSOPHY magazine 
> > > proclaimed 
> > > > > in 
> > > > > > no uncertain terms:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "Robert Crosbie preserved unbroken the link of the Second 
> > > > > [Esoteric] 
> > > > > > Section of the Theosophical Movement from the passing of 
> Mr. 
> > > Judge 
> > > > > in 
> > > > > > 1896, and in 1907 - just eleven years later - made that 
> link 
> > > once 
> > > > > > more Four Square amongst men. In the year 1909 the Third 
> > > Section 
> > > > > was 
> > > > > > restored by the formation of the United Lodge of 
> > > Theosophists ...."
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "...There is always one Witness on the scene. After the 
> death 
> > > of 
> > > > > Mr. 
> > > > > > Judge, Robert Crosbie kept the link unbroken." Theosophy 
> > > > > magazine, 
> > > > > > August, 1919.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Crosbie believed Judge was the agent and representative of 
> the 
> > > > > > Masters when he was still alive. So if indeed Crosbie kept 
> the 
> > > > > > [esoteric?] link unbroken after Mr. Judge's death, was 
> Crosbie 
> > > > > > really the "one Witness"? And what exactly does that term 
> mean?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > one Witness = true Chela = Representative = Agent of the 
> > > > > Masters ????
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Daniel
> > > > > > http://hpb.cc
> > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
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