Theos-Talk Archives (October 2006 Message tt00248)

Daniel,

Now you know strawberries are no elephants!
This is often called discernment. 


Carlos. 

De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:43:14 -0000

Assunto:Theos-World Re: E.R. is No E.S.

> Carlos writes:
> 
> -------------------------------------------------
> The Egyptian Rite is no Esoteric School and it is far from being 
> equivalent to one.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36458
> -------------------------------------------------
> 
> Well, we can quibble about whether the Egyptian Rite is an esoteric 
> school or not, but even Gregory Tillett lists BOTH the Egyptian Rite 
> and the Dzyan Esoteric School under the heading:
> 
> "secret societies"
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36359
> 
> And in another posting Tillett writes:
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> There is considerable debate in academic discussions about 
> esotericism as to what is a secret society and what is an esoteric 
> society! A spectrum can be developed from: existence open/ teachings 
> open (eg the TS) to existence open/ teachings secret (eg the Adyar 
> ES, Co-Masonry) to existence secret/teachings secret (eg ER).
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36381
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Therefore I think it is rather academic thing to decide/quibble 
> whether both ER and DES are esoteric societies/schools or not, and 
> exactly what is meant by "secret society" or "esoteric school".
> 
> Therefore I go back to a more relevant and important question:
> 
> Has the secret DES within the ULT actually been THE REAL CENTER of
> power within that association [ULT]?
> 
> This question is relevant in light of what Tillett has written 
> previously:
> 
> "It cannot seriously be argued that, for example, the ES within the
> Adyar TS has not been THE REAL CENTRE of political power within that
> Society...." caps added
> 
> "....the role of the DES has been EVEN GREATER than that of the
> Adyar and Pt Loma ES groups because it has remained
> largely 'invisible'."caps added
> 
> Daniel
> http://hpb.cc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which secret societies still operate:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36359
> 
> 
> There is considerable debate in academic discussions about 
> esotericism as to what is a secret society and what is an esoteric 
> society! A spectrum can be developed from: existence open/ teachings 
> open (eg the TS) to existence open/ teachings secret (eg the Adyar 
> ES, Co-Masonry) to existence secret/teachings secret (eg ER).
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36381
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Daniel,
> > 
> > Your points below have already been addressed by me. 
> > 
> > I will try to say that in a fews lines from another angle:
> > 
> > 
> > The Egyptian Rite is no Esoteric School and it is far from being 
> equivalent to one. 
> > 
> > I did not discuss any particular Esoteric School here, as long as I 
> remember, 
> > as I do not feel the Internet is the Forum for that. Therefore my 
> references to the Adyar ES here have been rather marginal. 
> > 
> > I have respect for the Adyar ES.
> > 
> > But the Egyptian Rite is an occult TRAP for souls -- a really 
> secret trap above the Adyar ES and unknown even to most pledged 
> members, even 3rd degree. 
> > 
> > I do not criticize openly that which has even one percent of 
> legitimacy.
> > 
> > But the ER is another thing. 
> > 
> > Best regards, Carlos. 
> > 
> > 
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Cópia:
> > 
> > Data:Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:05:47 -0000
> > 
> > Assunto:Theos-World Jake: Concerning Carlos & the Egyptian Rite & 
> DES
> > 
> > > Jake,
> > > 
> > > Notice Carlos' posting at:
> > > 
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36361
> > > 
> > > Now Carlos brings up some interesting points in this posting.
> > > 
> > > These are legitimate issues here to be discussed. No doubt. And 
> > > the more that is known about these issues, the better. At least in
> > > my opinion.
> > > 
> > > But if one can ask hard questions about the Egyptian Rite
> > > and its influence on the exoteric TS Adyar, it is not
> > > such a leap to wonder if some of what Carlos says ALSO
> > > applies to other current esoteric/secret groups including the DES.
> > > 
> > > It was Gregory Tillett who posted some years ago on Theos-Talk
> > > the question which reads:
> > > 
> > > What has been the role of the DES (the ULT ES organization) in the
> > > control and/or management of the ULT?
> > > 
> > > If the Eygyptian Rite and the TS Adyar Esoteric Schools have had 
> and 
> > > continue to have influence on the exoteric TS Adyar, then 
> Tillett's 
> > > question is a natural one also to raise.
> > > 
> > > From what Walter Carrithers and others have told me, it is 
> certainly 
> > > a legitimate question.
> > > 
> > > In Carlos' posting given above, he repeatedly writes 
> > > about "misleading secrecy" as concerning the Egyptian Rite. But 
> > > what about "misleading secrecy" as it applies to DES? Does it 
> > > apply? And if so, how? etc. etc.
> > > 
> > > Also notice another point Carlos brings up:
> > > 
> > > "I would not care to talk about that -- except for its dire 
> > > influence on a exoteric Society created by HPB to be an open 
> forum 
> > > of search for Truth. And -- for the fact that its influence 
> reaches 
> > > all of the movement, as there is no such thing as an 'occult 
> > > separation' among theosophical groups...."
> > > 
> > > Well, one might ask if this statement might also apply to the DES?
> > > Especially since Carlos assures us that :
> > > 
> > > "...there is no such thing as an 'occult separation' among 
> > > theosophical groups...."
> > > 
> > > What influence has there been? And could it be dire or otherwise?
> > > 
> > > I hope you and Carlos are not holding the position that it is 
> more 
> > > than okay to discuss and even criticize one esoteric group but 
> not 
> > > another. 
> > > 
> > > I approach all of this as an independent thinker and student. My 
> > > focus has been on Blavatsky --- her writings, the writings of her 
> > > Teachers, the history of her life, that is, material that helps 
> one 
> > > to understand not only the teachings but the life, claims and 
> work 
> > > of HPB. As to any of the claims, teachings and groups existing 
> > > AFTER 1891, I view them all with a healthy dose of 
> > > skepticism...trying to have an open mind but also asking hard 
> > > questions...certainly my association with Walter Carrithers 
> helped 
> > > me to see the need for such an approach.
> > > 
> > > I view all existing theosophical groups with some reservation. 
> > > Certainly each of them have wonderful resources available, such 
> as 
> > > libraries of books, publishing programs. I am convinced that the 
> > > vast majority of people in all these groups are good sincere 
> > > people...seekers of truth. But having said that, I do not mean 
> that 
> > > I accept without question the various claims, etc. that have been 
> > > made since 1891 by the various leaders whether from the three 
> major 
> > > theosophical groups today or other defunct groups such as 
> Hargrove's 
> > > TS, etc. In light of all the conflicting claims and counterclaims 
> > > it is certainly wise to approach all such claims made by whomever 
> > > with healthy skepticism and hard questions.
> > > 
> > > That is my approach. I don't expect anyone else to hold my view. 
> > > People can believe or disbelieve in whatever as they so choose. 
> > > 
> > > Daniel
> > > http://hpb.cc
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra.
> > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite
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> +_u=carlosaveline&_l=1,1161198444.867989.25927.baladonia.hst.terra.com
> .br,6798,Des15,Des15
> > > 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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