Theos-Talk Archives (October 2006 Message tt00247)

Carlos writes:

-------------------------------------------------
The Egyptian Rite is no  Esoteric School  and  it is far from being 
equivalent to one.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36458
-------------------------------------------------

Well, we can quibble about whether the Egyptian Rite is an esoteric 
school or not, but even Gregory Tillett lists BOTH the Egyptian Rite 
and the Dzyan Esoteric School under the heading:

"secret societies"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36359

And in another posting Tillett writes:

---------------------------------------------------
There is considerable debate in academic discussions about 
esotericism as to what is a secret society and what is an esoteric 
society! A spectrum can be developed from: existence open/ teachings 
open (eg the TS) to existence open/ teachings secret (eg the Adyar 
ES, Co-Masonry) to existence secret/teachings secret (eg ER).
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36381
------------------------------------------------------------

Therefore I think it is rather academic thing to decide/quibble 
whether both ER and DES  are esoteric societies/schools or not, and 
exactly what is meant by "secret society" or "esoteric school".

Therefore I go back to a more relevant and important question:

Has the secret DES within the ULT actually been THE REAL CENTER of
power within that association [ULT]?

This question is relevant in light of what Tillett has written 
previously:

"It cannot seriously be argued that, for example, the ES within the
Adyar TS has not been THE REAL CENTRE of political power within that
Society...." caps added

"....the role of the DES has been EVEN GREATER than that of the
Adyar and Pt Loma ES groups because it has remained
largely 'invisible'."caps added

Daniel
http://hpb.cc









Which secret societies still operate:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36359


There is considerable debate in academic discussions about 
esotericism as to what is a secret society and what is an esoteric 
society! A spectrum can be developed from: existence open/ teachings 
open (eg the TS) to existence open/ teachings secret (eg the Adyar 
ES, Co-Masonry) to existence secret/teachings secret (eg ER).
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36381

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> Daniel,
> 
> Your points below have already been addressed by me. 
> 
> I will try to say that in a fews lines from another angle:
> 
> 
> The Egyptian Rite is no  Esoteric School  and  it is far from being 
equivalent to one. 
> 
> I did not discuss any particular Esoteric School here, as long as I 
remember, 
> as I do not feel  the Internet is the Forum for that.  Therefore my 
references to the Adyar ES here have been rather marginal.  
> 
> I have respect for the Adyar ES.
> 
> But the Egyptian Rite is an occult TRAP for souls -- a really 
secret trap above the Adyar ES and unknown even to most pledged 
members,  even 3rd degree. 
> 
> I do not criticize openly that which has even one percent of 
legitimacy.
> 
> But the ER is another thing. 
> 
> Best regards,   Carlos. 
> 
>   
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Cópia:
> 
> Data:Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:05:47 -0000
> 
> Assunto:Theos-World Jake: Concerning Carlos & the Egyptian Rite & 
DES
> 
> > Jake,
> > 
> > Notice Carlos' posting at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36361
> > 
> > Now Carlos brings up some interesting points in this posting.
> > 
> > These are legitimate issues here to be discussed. No doubt. And 
> > the more that is known about these issues, the better. At least in
> > my opinion.
> > 
> > But if one can ask hard questions about the Egyptian Rite
> > and its influence on the exoteric TS Adyar, it is not
> > such a leap to wonder if some of what Carlos says ALSO
> > applies to other current esoteric/secret groups including the DES.
> > 
> > It was Gregory Tillett who posted some years ago on Theos-Talk
> > the question which reads:
> > 
> > What has been the role of the DES (the ULT ES organization) in the
> > control and/or management of the ULT?
> > 
> > If the Eygyptian Rite and the TS Adyar Esoteric Schools have had 
and 
> > continue to have influence on the exoteric TS Adyar, then 
Tillett's 
> > question is a natural one also to raise.
> > 
> > From what Walter Carrithers and others have told me, it is 
certainly 
> > a legitimate question.
> > 
> > In Carlos' posting given above, he repeatedly writes 
> > about "misleading secrecy" as concerning the Egyptian Rite. But 
> > what about "misleading secrecy" as it applies to DES? Does it 
> > apply? And if so, how? etc. etc.
> > 
> > Also notice another point Carlos brings up:
> > 
> > "I would not care to talk about that -- except for its dire 
> > influence on a exoteric Society created by HPB to be an open 
forum 
> > of search for Truth. And -- for the fact that its influence 
reaches 
> > all of the movement, as there is no such thing as an 'occult 
> > separation' among theosophical groups...."
> > 
> > Well, one might ask if this statement might also apply to the DES?
> > Especially since Carlos assures us that :
> > 
> > "...there is no such thing as an 'occult separation' among 
> > theosophical groups...."
> > 
> > What influence has there been? And could it be dire or otherwise?
> > 
> > I hope you and Carlos are not holding the position that it is 
more 
> > than okay to discuss and even criticize one esoteric group but 
not 
> > another. 
> > 
> > I approach all of this as an independent thinker and student. My 
> > focus has been on Blavatsky --- her writings, the writings of her 
> > Teachers, the history of her life, that is, material that helps 
one 
> > to understand not only the teachings but the life, claims and 
work 
> > of HPB. As to any of the claims, teachings and groups existing 
> > AFTER 1891, I view them all with a healthy dose of 
> > skepticism...trying to have an open mind but also asking hard 
> > questions...certainly my association with Walter Carrithers 
helped 
> > me to see the need for such an approach.
> > 
> > I view all existing theosophical groups with some reservation. 
> > Certainly each of them have wonderful resources available, such 
as 
> > libraries of books, publishing programs. I am convinced that the 
> > vast majority of people in all these groups are good sincere 
> > people...seekers of truth. But having said that, I do not mean 
that 
> > I accept without question the various claims, etc. that have been 
> > made since 1891 by the various leaders whether from the three 
major 
> > theosophical groups today or other defunct groups such as 
Hargrove's 
> > TS, etc. In light of all the conflicting claims and counterclaims 
> > it is certainly wise to approach all such claims made by whomever 
> > with healthy skepticism and hard questions.
> > 
> > That is my approach. I don't expect anyone else to hold my view. 
> > People can believe or disbelieve in whatever as they so choose. 
> > 
> > Daniel
> > http://hpb.cc
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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