Theos-Talk Archives (August 2006 Message tt00174)

Dear Dallas,

Thank you for your reply. I am afraid I didn't make
myself clear. I didn't say I don't have time for the
study of Theosophy; fortunately, I have found time for
it for the past 30 years. What I did try to say is
that I find it difficult to engage in an online
discussion when vast amounts of information are
presented without any point of view/comment expressed.
Quotations can illustrate a discussion but they
can hardly, in themselves, help one to take place, as discussions 
imply listening, reflection, argumentation and consideration of 
someone else's point of view. Perhaps I should have taken into 
consideration your possible reticence in expressing points of view 
or comments on theosophical teachings. If this was the case I do
apologise.

Best wishes,

Pedro



--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" 
<dalval14@...> wrote:
>
> 8/3/2006 10:45 AM
> 
>  
> 
> Dear Friend:
> 
>  
> 
> Please see insertions in  [  ]  brackets marked DTB.  
> 
>  
> 
> You say you have no time to study the mass of material offered so 
uniquely
> in THEOSOPHY . I agree that it is quite overwhelming - but this is 
not a
> quick crib.  It is a lengthy study once that one is convinced of 
the logic
> of the records.  To assure yourself of this, will require time and 
effort. 
> 
>  
> 
> None of us can afford any bias or prejudice - we have to be as 
impartial and
> thorough as we can manage - if we are engaging in this as a serous 
quest.
> 
>  
> 
> The Index I copy below will afford a synopsis of the subject.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> You ask for further comments on:
> 
>  
> 
> "That for long ages, the "Wise Men" 
> 
>  
> 
> -----------------------------------------------
> 
>  
> 
> DTB     [MAHATMAS, SAGES, BUDDHAS, BODHISATTVAS, ETC.  --  DTB] 
> 
>  
> 
> of the Fifth [ARYAN  --  DTB] Race  
> 
>  
> 
> DTB     [ our MONADIC EGOS may have been part of this effort as 
Their
> DISCIPLES and PUPILS  --  our HIGHER SELF (ATMA,) is immortal. 
> 
>  
> 
> The designations such as RACE,  SUB-RACE,  FAMILY RACE, etc. 
indicate a vast
> period of time in the total evolutionary scheme.  We, as immortal 
EGOS
> (Spirit-Minds) reincarnated in those periods and have undergone the
> training. teaching and learning relative to that past physical 
environment.
> -DTB]
> 
>  
> 
> -------------------------------
> 
>  
> 
> of the stock saved and rescued from the last cataclysm and 
shifting of
> continents, had passed their lives in learning, not teaching. 
> 
>  
> 
> -------------------------------
> 
> DTB     [ As to Enoch, Thoth or Hermes, Orpheus and Kadmus, these 
are all
> generic names, branches and offshoots of the seven primordial sages
> (incarnated Dhyan Chohans or Devas, in illusive, not mortal 
bodies) who
> taught Humanity all it knew, and whose earliest disciples assumed 
their
> master's names. This custom passed from the Fourth to the Fifth 
Race. Hence
> the sameness of the traditions about Hermes (of whom Egyptologists 
count
> five) Enoch, etc., they are all inventors of letters; NONE OF THEM 
DIES BUT
> STILL LIVES, AND THEY ARE THE FIRST INITIATORS INTO, AND FOUNDERS 
OF THE
> MYSTERIES. The Genesis of Enoch disappeared only very lately among 
the
> Kabalists. Guillaume Postel saw it. It was most certainly in a 
great measure
> a transcript from the books of Hermes, and far anterior to the 
Books of
> Moses, as Eliphas Levi tells his readers."  S D  II  267 fn  DTB]
> 
> DTB     ["The Third Race was pre-eminently the bright shadow, at 
first, of
> the gods, whom tradition exiles on Earth after the allegorical war 
in
> Heaven; which became still more allegorical on Earth, for it was 
the war
> between spirit and matter. This war will last till the inner and 
divine man
> adjusts his outer terrestrial self to his own spiritual nature. 
Till then
> the dark and fierce passions of the former will be at eternal feud 
with his
> master, the Divine Man. But the animal will be tamed one day, 
because its
> nature will be changed, and harmony will reign once more between 
the two as
> before the "Fall," when even mortal man was created by the 
Elements and was
> not born. "  S D   II  268 ]
> 
> ----------------------------------
> 
> How did they do so? 
> 
>  
> 
> It is answered: by checking, testing, and verifying in every 
department of
> nature the traditions of old by the independent visions of great 
adepts;
> i.e., men who have developed and perfected their physical, mental, 
psychic,
> and spiritual organisations to the utmost possible degree. 
> 
>  
> 
> DTB     [ see S D   I  327, 341,   II  136, 191  --  DTB]
> 
>  
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> 
>  
> 
> No vision of one adept was accepted till it was checked and 
confirmed by the
> visions-so 
> obtained as to stand as independent evidence-of other adepts, and 
by
> centuries of experiences." (SD, I, Summing Up, p. 273)  
> 
>  
> 
> DTB     [ see S D  I  p. 39  -- DTB]
> 
>  
> 
> ------------------------------------------------
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> My understanding is subject to review of course. The quotes I 
offer are
> confirmation elsewhere in the SECRET DOCTRINE of those you  quoted 
and asked
> about.
> 
>  
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> 
>  
> 
>                         Courtesy of Pasadena Theosophical 
Publishing House  
> 
>  
> 
> From the SECRET DOCTRINE 
> 
> Race(s). See also Humanity, Man, Mankind,
> 
> Adamic, our II 6 
> androgynous II 96, 134 
> astral, & environment II 157 
> astral doubles, were II 115 
> Bamian statues record II 339-40 
> black, brown, older (Winchell) II 695 
> w bones & Adamic rib II 193 
> born fr gods, universal concept I 323 
> born, grow, die II 443-4 
> cataclysms &, transition II 500n, 703 
> complexions of II 178, 227 &n, 249-50, 282 
> condensation of II 151 
> creation of II 86-108 
> cycles & I 642; II 330-1, 780 
> destroyed by fire, water II 725-6 
> differences betw II 103, 249-50, 607n 
> divine, our, sprang fr II 365 
> dying out of II 779-80 
> each, has its deva II 538 
> each, under a planet II 23-4 
> 
> 
> earliest, needed no elements II 160 
> early, boneless, ethereal II 149 
> early, had no egos II 610 
> early Lemurian, roots of mammals II 736 
> early, sinless, karma-less II 610 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> effects of isolation on II 425 
> elect, & highest dhyanis II 276 
> ethereal, incorporeal II 194 
> ethereal to material & back again II 697 
> every, adapted to surroundings II 46 
> every, exalts its deity II 507 
> 
> 
> evolution of, & embryo II 187-9, 659 
> evolution of, performed in Mysteries II 419n 
> 
> 
> extinct, near Tchertchen I xxxiii-iv 
> fifth, humanity & Mahabharata II 139 
> 
> 
> first, & Manu II 307, 311 
> first & second, not physical II 108 
> first, had three elements II 107, 113 
> first, origin of II 86-7 
> first, or "self-born" II 164, 198 
> first, sexless II 134 
> first speaking, or Ad-i II 452 
> 
> 
> first three, & three orders of mammals II 713-14 
> first two, disappeared in progeny II 609n 
> first two, knew no death II 609 
> first two, many-shaped II 635 
> first, were created, destroyed II 704 
> first, without fire II 107, 113 
> 
> 
> five, & four Adams II 457, 503-4 
> five [in Vishnu Purana] II 322 
> 
> fourth developed speech II 198-200 
> garments of, (Zohar) II 315 
> giant II 754-6 
> of half-human monsters II 192 
> hermaphrodite (separating) II 134 
> human, can breed together II 195 
> hybrid, left by third II 714 
> Indo-European, height of II 749 
> inferior, explained II 162, 249n, 425 
> inferior, not always older II 721 
> initiates know history of II 133 
> initiates veil information re early II 715n 
> inner senses atrophied in early II 294 
> intellect dormant in early I 210 
> intermediate, evolved II 275 
> 
> Lemuria's accursed, lived in jungles II 319 
> many, disappear without trace II 437 
> 
> mindless, some early, remained II 161-2 
> mixture of, makes new races II 444 
> more ancient than mammals II 56n 
> once an organism without organs II 154
> 
>  
> our, has reached fifth subrace II 471n 
> 
> 
> overlap each other II 433n 
> oviparous even now II 131 
> phoenix stands for, -cycle II 617 
> 
> polygenetic origin of II 168, 249 
> pralaya of a II 404 
>  
> predestination in history of I 641 
> primeval, huge, filamentoid II 151 
> primitive, may be old, relapsed II 721-2 
> primitive, was boneless I 583n 
> 
>  
> red & blue, destroyed II 192 
> relics of distant, will be found I 609 
> rise & fall of, & writing II 442 
> 
> savage & civilized, in all ages II 716 
> self-, sweat-, & egg-born II 30, 68, 116-17, 172-3 
> 
> seven, & seven rays II 191n 
> seven, born simultaneously II 1-12, 77, 329, 611 
> seven, in Bible II 747-8 
> seven, in Revelation II 565, 748 
> seven, in various religions II 617-18 
> seven, kept secret I xxxv 
> seven kings or seven I 241; II 748 
> seven, on Babylonian Tree II 104 
> seven rishis are II 139 
> seven zones & II 77, 91, 249, 607n 
> 
>  
> 
> sterility of, explained II 195-6, 780 
> superior & inferior, a fallacy II 425 
> Talmudists lost sense of forty-nine II 618 
> 
> 
> Race that never dies II 67, 275  & fn,  281-2
> 
> 
> three ethereal II 669 
> three-eyed men of third & fourth II 669 
> three great, only remain II 471n, 780
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Root-Race -- Third. See also Lemurians, 
> 
> adepts dwelt under pyramids II 351-2 
> Adi-Varsha (Eden) of II 203 
> agnishvattas incarnated in II 91 
> analogy of principles & II 254n 
> androgyne II 165, 172, 177, 197 
> animalistic, last portion of II 254n 
> animal man descended fr I 650 
> animals two-sexed during II 184 
> ape-like, but thinking & speaking I 191 
> ape's ancestor fr man in I 190 &n; II 184-5 &nn, 187, 262, 729n 
> architecture fr rishis of I 208-9n 
> arupa pitris incarnate in II 93-4 
> asuras, rudras incarnated in II 164 
> Atlantean conflicts w II 227n 
> Atlantean giants fr, females II 275 
> Australians descended fr II 199n, 328 
> 
> 
> awakening of mind in, karmic II 198 
> babes walked when born II 197 
> Bamian statues & II 340 
> began in northern regions II 329 
> begat its progeny II 267 
> bisexual II 135, 197 
> w bones II 172, 183, 193 
> bright shadow of gods II 268 
> built boats before houses II 399n 
> civilization drowned II 426 
> civilization higher than Greek, Roman, & Egyptian II 429-30 
> climate semitropical II 329 
> colored light yellow II 250 
> continent II 7, 8, 328 
> cross in circle or I 5 
> cyclopean structures of II 317 
> Daksha & II 183 
> deluge not a curse II 410 
> deluge story applied to II 140 &n 
> demigods of II 319 
> description of, at zenith II 171-2 
> destroyed twice I 439n 
> deva-man of, & 3rd eye II 302 
> dhyanis incarnated in I 188; II 47n, 165, 228 
> disappeared at end of Secondary Age II 714 
> divine instructors & kings of II 194, 198, 201, 318, 359 
> divine ones of, & kriyasakti II 636-7 
> Dragons of Wisdom adepts of II 210 
> Earth's waist, navel appeared for II 400 
> Easter Island statues & II 340 
> Eastern Africa submerged in II 327 
> egg-born (oviparous) II 116, 123, 165-6, 173, 177, 181, 197 
> endowed w mind II 47n, 89, 248 
> "eternal spring" ended w separation II 201 
> Eva (Hebrew) & II 129-30 
> fallen "Serpent" (wisdom) descends on II 230 
> fell in North & Central Asia II 763n 
> fell into generation II 609 
> fell into pride II 271-2 
> first intellectual race II 211 
> first lands frozen over at time of II 201 
> first physical race II 46, 156-7, 789 
> first really human race II 329 
> fought giant monsters II 9 
> generation of bronze (Hesiod) II 97 
> Genesis 3 & II 46n, 410 
> geological deluge ended II 313 
> giant, ape-like, astral II 688n 
> giants, monsters produced in II 192-3 
> gods of, male & female II 135 
> hermaphrodite (separating) II 30, 134, 167 
> hybrid races left by II 714 
> Ida legend refers to II 147-8 
> intermediate race produced by II 275 
> Jared symbol of elect of II 597n 
> Jurassic, appeared in II 156 
> Kabiri, etc, incarnated in elect of II 360 
> knew death only toward close II 609 
> kriyasakti used by II 173-4, 181 
> last remnant of II 220 
> last semi-spiritual race II 134 
> late, fell into sin II 319 
> lunar pitris build bodies of II 110 
> male, female born fr shells II 197 
> male Moon sacred to I 397 
> mammals fr man in II 186 
> man an animal intellectually until II 161 
> manasa pitris awakened I 180-1, 539n; II 525n 
> man's spiritual origins in II 165-6n 
> manushyas created woman II 140 
> 
> 
> mid-, eighteen million years ago II 156-7;  I  150fn,,
> 
> 
> mind awakened in mid- I 180-1; II 254-5 
> mind-born & will-born II 156 
> mind-born sons of II 204 
> mindless at separation I 190; II 267 
> mindless, bred w animals II 184-5, 191-3, 201 
> 
> 
> Mysteries revealed to II 281 
> 
> nirmanakayas & II 94, 201 
> nomads, savages of II 318 
> 
> 
> oral records of fourth race fr II 530 
> origin of culture II 782n 
> perished before Eocene II 313 
> Popol Vuh re II 160 
> pre-tertiary giants II 9 
> produced unconsciously I 207 
> psycho-spiritual mentally II 298-9n 
> religion of II 272-3 
> reproduction, three methods of II 132, 197 
> Secondary Age & II 713 
> secrets of nature public in II 319 
> semi-human during first half of II 685-6 
> Senzar fr second race devas I xliii 
> separation ended satya-yuga II 201 
> Seth, Adam's third son symbol of II 469
> 
>  
> sexes separated before mind I 207; II 191, 198, 228 
> sex fr hermaphrodites II 177-8 
> sexual in later II 3, 125, 132, 167, 182, 609 
> sight at beginning of II 299 
> 
> 
> Sin of Mindless among II 184-5, 191-2, 683 
> 
> 
> solid after midpoint & Fall II 250 
> Sons of Will & Yoga among I 207; II 163, 173, 181, 199, 220 
> speech developed w mind II 198 
> sweat-born & II 67-8, 131-3, 148, 172, 177, 198 
> tau symbol of, up to Fall I 5 
> third Adam, man of "dust" or II 457-8 
> third eye of II 288-302, 306 
> third round & I 188-9, 190 
> thought transference II 199 
> three aspects of II 254n 
> transformation of sexes during II 147 
> two sexes during fifth subrace of II 715n 
> Vaivasvata Manu & II 148-9 
> Vasishtha-Daksha's sons in II 78 
> vehicle of Lords of Wisdom II 172 
> Venus under influence of II 24 
> Wondrous Being descended in I 207 
> Zeus divides, man (Plato) II 177
> 
> Root-Race -- Fourth. See also Atlantis (ean), Cyclopes
> 
> acme of materiality II 534 
> adepts of II 210, 351-2 
> agglutinative language of some of II 199 
> anthropoids fr late II 193, 195 
> arrogant & full of pride II 271-2, 760 
> astronomy imparted to, by divine king II 29 
> Atlas' daughters seven subraces of II 768 
> Atlas symbolizes II 493 
> black w sin, became II 227, 250, 319 
> born in Secondary Age II 714 
> brown & yellow giants II 227n 
> catastrophe thinned II 309, 724 
> causes of destruction of, (Enoch) II 534 
> children of Padmapani (Chenresi) II 173 
> civilization of, greater than ours II 429-30 
> conflicts of, w third race II 227n 
> continent of, belonged to Eocene II 693 
> cosmic gods & four elements I 464 
> cross out of circle symbol of I 5 
> cyclopean civilization gave way to II 769 
> daityas, giants of II 31, 151, 183, 276 
> deified men of third race II 172 
> deluge destroyed II 140, 144 
> deluge not a curse II 350, 410 
> descending arc ends at middle of II 180 
> destroyed in its kali-yuga II 147n 
> developed fr third race men II 334 
> developed speech II 198-200 
> door into human kingdom closed in I 182 
> duration of II 10 
> early, worshiped spirit alone I 327 
> Easter Island statues II 224-5, 316n, 326-7, 331 
> eleven buddhas only belong to II 423n 
> ethereal prototypes of II 9 
> Eye of Siva in II 302 
> first "truly human" race II 715n 
> fled to high mountains II 724 
> fourth Adam "fallen" II 457-8 
> fourth continent of II 8 
> Genesis 3 refers to early II 410 
> gibborim or II 279 
> golden-yellow race II 319 
> Hanokh (Enoch) gave wisdom of, to Noah II 532 
> height of, early Eocene II 433n, 710 
> inherited wisdom fr third race II 530 
> initiates made Bamian statues II 339 
> instructors of II 359 
> intelligence of, earthy & impure II 134 
> Kabiri incarnated in elect of II 360 
> karma gradually changed II 411 
> language is perfected in I 189 
> last of, invade Europe II 743-4 
> lion symbolizes II 533 
> magicians of, called dragons II 280n 
> Mahabharata re end of II 146 
> male heroes of, we worship II 135 
> mankind mostly fr seventh subrace of II 178 
> mated w lower beings II 284-5 
> middle of, man & globe grosser II 250-1 
> Neptune symb titanic strength of II 766 
> Nereus rules II 766 
> Noah symbol of II 597n 
> oral records of II 530 
> physical origin of later races in early II 165n 
> pioneers of, not Atlanteans II 323 
> pyramids & adepts of II 351-2 
> Rakshasi Bhasha language of II 199 
> records since beginning of I 646 
> red-yellow II 250 
> resorted to body-worship II 279 
> semi-demons of II 319 
> Seth-Enos II 134 
> seventh subrace of, mixed w Aryans II 743 
> shadows of pitris dominate to midpoint of II 110 
> siddhas of, & fifth race sages II 636 
> Sons of Wisdom & II 228 
> sorcery & androgyne Moon I 397 
> spirits of giant tabernacles of I 225 
> third eye & II 294, 302, 306 
> third subrace of, & records II 353 
> three-eyed in early II 294 
> transmitted four elements to fifth race I 342 
> two eyes perfected at beginning of II 769 
> two sexes in II 125, 173 
> Ulysses hero of II 769 
> unique I 182 
> Vaivasvata & II 140, 309, 313 
> Venus story in Puranas & II 30 
> war between, & fifth race initiates I 419 
> white & black magic began in I 192n; II 211 
> wisdom only thru initiation in II 134 
> Zeus reigns but Poseidon rules II 766
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Root-Race -- 5th. See also Aryan Race
> 
> adepts of II 210, 351-2, 384 
> adepts vs Atlantean sorcerers II 384 
> age of II 10 
> animal propensities in I 610 
> anthropoids will die out in I 184 
> 
> 
> arhatship at end of I 206-7 
> Aryan incorrect name II 434 
> in Asia II 280n 
> 
> 
> Atlantean deluge & II 144 
> Atlantean karma of II 302 
> Atlantis sank in infancy of I 650-1; II 147n, 350, 714 
> 
> 
> Bamian statue records II 340 
> bull symbolizes II 533 
> China one of oldest, nations II 364 
> colors of II 249-50, 351 
> continent of II 8-9 
> cradleland of II 204 
> decrease in stature of I 609; II 279 
> deified man of third race II 172 
> deluges in II 353 
> deluges of barbarians in II 742n 
> destruction of, (2Peter) II 757 
> 
> 
> divine kings of II 351, 353, 359, 436 
> 
> 
> early, greeted Venus-Lucifer II 759 
> earthly spirit of fourth strong in I 224-5 
> earthquakes & eruptions in II 307n 
> 
> family races of fourth subrace of II 433 
> 
> 
> fifth element (ether) & II 135 
> fifth subrace I 319, 471n 
> 
> 
> first appearance of II 395 
> first deluge of, cosmical II 353 
> first glacial period & II 144 
> first, second races & II 300 
> first symmetrical race II 294 
> 
> 
> fourth subrace of I 319; II 433 
> 
> 
> hearing limited at beginning of I 535n 
> history mostly of I 406; II 351, 444 
> idolatry, anthropomorphism in II 503 
> inflectional language of II 200 
> initiates wrote Rig-Veda II 606 
> intellectual replaced spiritual I 225; II 300 
> knowledge of writing & II 442 
> led away by preconceptions I 298 
> lunar-solar worship divided I 397 
> magicians called dragons II 280n 
> Mahabharata prologue to II 139 
> manasa period of races II 300 
> man helpless, scrofulous II 411 
> midpoint of subrace I xliii, 185, 610 
> mode of procreation will be altered I 406 
> Mysteries reestablished by II 124 
> not entirely Aryan II 429 
> 
> 
> now in kali-yuga II 147n 
> 
> 
> reincarnation tenets fr fourth race II 760 
> rescued fr last cataclysm I 273 
> Roman, Gnostic, Greek symbols of II 458 
> sages of, & fourth race siddhas II 636 
> 
> 
> Sanskrit & I 23; II 200 
> 
> 
> serpents redescended & taught II 355 
> skeletons nine-twelve feet explained II 293 
> some of, have reached adeptship I 206 
> sorcery in II 503 
> Tau cross & I 5 
> third race spirituality coming to I 225 
> tribes of, fought Atlanteans II 225 
> twenty-four buddhas in II 423 &n 
> Vaivasvata saved II 140, 309, 310, 313-14 
> Vaivasvata seed of, man II 146-7, 249-50 
> volcanic conflagrations will end II 307n 
> war between, & fourth race sorcerers I 419 
> we are now in II 140n, 434 
> White Head or, (Kabbala) II 705-6 
> will gradually change II 445-6 
> will overlap sixth race II 444-6 
> will transmit ether to sixth race I 342 
> wisdom dictated to, in Senzar I xliii
> 
>  
> 
> ==================================
> 
>  
> 
> Well, that is a lot to encompass - takes years of diligent and 
devoted study
> to make sense of all that is advanced from the ancient records.  
That is of
> course "history."  
> 
>  
> 
> Assurance may be first derived that it is NOT "SCIENCE - 
FICTION."  The
> logic inherent in the whole curriculum does give this kind of 
assurance. 
> 
>  
> 
> Many of the "gaps" in scientific theorizing are filled.
> 
>  
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Dallas
> 
> =====================
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message------
> 
> On Behalf Of pedro oliveira
> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:12 AM
> To: 
> Subject: Re: Fundamentalism, religion and reason
> 
>  
> 
> Dear Dallas,
> 
> Thank you for your posting. As I find it hard to absorb vast 
amounts 
> of information all at once, and because I am interested in 
inquiring 
> into the question of fundamentalism as deeply as possible, I would 
> like to ask you, if I may, for you to give us your comments or 
> interpretation of the well-known passage which you just quoted and 
> which I copy here:
> 
> "That for long ages, the "Wise Men" of the Fifth Race, of the 
stock 
> saved and rescued from the last cataclysm and shifting of 
> continents, had passed their lives in learning, not teaching. How 
> did they do so? It is answered: by checking, testing, and 
verifying 
> in every department of nature the traditions of old by the 
> independent visions of great adepts; i.e., men who have developed 
> and perfected their physical, mental, psychic, and spiritual
> organisations to the utmost possible degree. No vision of one 
adept 
> was accepted till it was checked and confirmed by the visions-so 
> obtained as to stand as independent evidence-of other adepts, and 
by 
> centuries of experiences." (SD, I, Summing Up)
> 
> I regard the above passage a core statement not only about the 
> origins of Theosophy as a teaching but also about the very soul of 
> religion. It seems to me that it is only when this vital spirit of 
> learning through checking, testing and verifying, with the 
wholeness 
> of our perception, the received traditions, weakens or dies that 
> dogmatism, intolerance and rigidity in spiritual matters arise.
> 
> May we have you thoughts on the above?
> 
> With warm regards,
> 
> Pedro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>