Theos-Talk Archives (August 2006 Message tt00173)

Thanks Pedro for sharing your experiences I found it very interesting 
(although not surprising) that the 3rd fundamental proposition is 
taboo even though the 1st proposition predicates it as well.

It seems that to say we are divine, empowers us to find our own path 
to truth rather than blindly believing solely in so called infallible 
& divinely inspired books or authorities.

This would, heaven forbid, encourage individual spiritual pursuit and 
self empowerment away from `orthodoxy' and have people thinking for 
themselves! 

The theosophical concepts are power bestowing in a very real sense 
and would be a threat to corrupted and long established power vested 
interests.

I suppose that the rationale is given by the paternalists that it 
keeps man `humble' and `in his place' hmmm I think it's more a case 
of it keeps him powerless and in subjection to the power elite 
establishments.

The most empowering idea in theosophical thinking is that every Soul 
is identical with the Universal Over-Soul thus eliminating the need 
for any mediators.
This was the great threat the Gnostics posed to the `orthodoxy' as 
well. (politics and power)

It must be quite a challenge to be able to put these theosophical 
ideas across in countries that don't have the same freedom of speech 
that we have in Western countries and can sometimes take for granted, 
once again I suppose it's a balancing act.
Its a good idea to try and keep the head attached to the neck LOL

Best Wishes

Perry


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "pedro oliveira" <prmoliveira@...> 
wrote:
>
> Dear Perry,
> 
> Thank you for your reply. I recently went on a lecture tour through 
> Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia. As you know, both Malaysia and 
> Indonesia are Muslim countries and one should be careful about 
> words, not only to avoid offending sensibilities but also to stay 
> alive!
> 
> In Bandung, Indonesia, I was invited to give a lecture at a 
Catholic 
> University in which the majority of the audience consisted of 
> Muslims. The subject of my lecture was "The Perennial Philosophy 
and 
> its Application in Daily Life", and it was based, in part, on the 
> Three Fundamental Propositions of The Secret Doctrine. After the 
> talk, my translator, a very dedicated theosophist who is also vice-
> president of the Indo-Pacific Federation of the TS (Adyar), told me 
> he was uncomfortable with me mentioning the Third Fundamental 
> Proposition, and specifically commenting on the identity of every 
> human Soul with the Universal Over-Soul. He told this teaching is 
> frowned upon in Islam as God is ever transcendent and that I should 
> consider myself fortunate that nobody in the audience objected to 
> it. Just to give you an idea of the risk involved, many centuries 
> ago a Sufi teacher, Mansur Al-Hallaj, was beheaded for affirming 
> publically his union with God! Such are the risks of trying to 
> disseminate Theosophy today.
> 
> A very interesting experience awaited me in Jakarta, the last leg 
> (or neck, if you prefer!) of my tour. A commemorative meeting of 
the 
> anniversary of the Indonesian TS (due to legal reasons they call 
> themselves 'Federation of Indonesian Theosophists', as earlier 
> governments, after the Independence from Holland, banned any 
> association with foreign organisations) was organised and the 
former 
> General Secretary, who is a Muslim, gave us a talk about the 
history 
> of the TS in that country. I felt deeply moved by it. For example, 
> during the Japanese occupation of Indonesia, in World War II, 
> Indonesian theosophists kept the Society alive by holding meetings 
> undergound, at the risk of their own lives.
> 
> After the talk, I asked the old gentleman for his opinion about the 
> difficulty in conveying to audiences in that country, the 
> fundamental identity between the human Soul and the Universal Over-
> Soul. He said that for him that was not a problem as he understood 
> God to be the unity of all existence. He is 84 and still holding 
> study meetings in his house.
> 
> Sorry for my rambling. What I really wanted to say is that the 
> mystical heart of religion, I feel, is still alive, whether it is 
in 
> Judaism, Christianity or Islam. I felt it in Indonesia very 
strongly 
> and it expressed itself in the attitude of kindness of the many 
> people I met. And perhaps kindness (or compassion) is the soul of 
> religion. 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Pedro
>     
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "plcoles1" <plcoles1@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Cass and Pedro,
> > Very thought provoking ! 
> > 
> > I think its important to remember that religion plays a very 
> > important part in many peoples lives and so the need is to try 
and 
> > integrate a more tolerant and inclusive dialogue between the 
> > different religions.
> > 
> > Perhaps the integration of a more symbolic and mystical approach 
> is a 
> > possible answer away from literalist and dead letter 
> interpretations.
> > 
> > Islam, Christianity and Judaism all have strong mystical and 
> symbolic 
> > traditions within them and this approach would also allow an 
> opening 
> > for tolerance not only inter-religiously but scientifically and 
> > philosophically.
> > 
> > The more humanity can grasp that spirituality does not require 
> below 
> > to a religion but is more about compassionate action and 
> > understanding the quicker humanities spiritual evolution can move 
> > forward.
> > 
> > The trouble comes when `salvation' is seen as belonging only to 
> only 
> > certain people who belong to a particular sect or way of 
believing.
> > 
> > However another thing to consider I do think is that many of the 
> > world's problems while they maybe dressed up in religious garb 
are 
> > really underneath prompted and used by geopolitical power plays.
> > 
> > Power vested interests have a lot to gain by keeping people 
> ignorant.
> > 
> > Cheers
> > 
> > Perry
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "pedro oliveira" 
<prmoliveira@> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Cass and Perry,
> > > 
> > > Thank you for your views. I prefer to take a cautious approach 
> to 
> > > the issue of fundamentalism because I am convinced that it is 
> not 
> > > possible to understand it as if it were a black or white 
> reality. 
> > > The interview I mentioned in my earlier posting, with Professor 
> > > Seyyed Hossein Nasr, made me think afresh about the problem. 
> > > 
> > > The issue of power in this question, mentioned by Perry, is 
> quite 
> > > evident. But then power-seeking placates every human 
> organisation 
> > on 
> > > this earth and is not limited to religion. The dualism in 
> religious 
> > > structures/theologies, mentioned by Cass, is also evident, but 
I 
> > > would faintheartedly suggest that not even science is free from 
> it, 
> > > and even in the broad daylight of the 21st century it still 
sees 
> > > consciousness not as a primary reality but as an epiphenomenon 
> of 
> > > the brain chemistry!
> > > 
> > > The Theosophical Movement is also not without its 
contradictions 
> in 
> > > its attitude to religion. We have the forceful (and convincing) 
> > > denunciation of religion as being responsible for two thirds of 
> > > human misery (Mahatma Letters) and yet the Founders established 
> a 
> > > Society to study Comparative Religion! See, for example, the 
> > > following letter:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > GREETINGS to the Hindu, Parsee, Buddhist, English and other 
> > > Delegates and to the Fellows herewith present.
> > > Remember that though of various nationalities and religions you 
> are 
> > > nearly all the children of one mother, India. Remember and act 
> > > accordingly. You have to make of the Anniversary ceremony 
> > > celebration a grand success. You have to prove to your evil-
> wishers 
> > > and enemies that your cause, being strong and having taken its 
> > stand 
> > > upon the rock of truth, indeed can never be impeded in its 
> progress 
> > > by any opposition, however powerful, if you be all united and 
> act 
> > in 
> > > concert. Be true, be loyal to your pledges, to your sacred 
duty, 
> to 
> > > your country, to your own conscience. Be tolerant to others, 
> > respect 
> > > the religious views of others if you would have your own 
> respected. 
> > > Sons of India, of old Aryavarta, whether adopted or sons of her 
> > > blood, remember that you are theosophists and that Theosophy or 
> > > Brahma Vidya is the mother of every old religion, forsaken and 
> > > repudiated though she may now be by most of her ungrateful 
> > children. 
> > > Remember this, act accordingly and the rest will follow in due 
> > > course.
> > > With our sincere blessings,
> > > 								
> > > 	K.H.
> > > 
> > > (Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series, letter 2)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Did the Mahatmas give so much importance to religious 
> understanding 
> > > because they somehow knew religion would be an explosive 
> influence 
> > > in the twentieth century, when destituted of spiritual insight 
> or 
> > > mysticism? I confess I don't know. But what seems clear to me 
> now 
> > is 
> > > that fundamentalism is not an isolated phenomenon, but an 
> integral 
> > > part of the cultural wars that started with the dawning of the 
> > > modern age in the 17th century, with Cartesian and thought-
> centred 
> > > world views dominating the world. Interestingly enough, this is 
> > also 
> > > the period of dramatic expansion of colonialist rules around 
the 
> > > globe.  
> > > 
> > > Pedro
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@> 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > My thinking is that all religions are steeped in good/evil, 
> > > reward/punishment axioms coming from a personal god, who for 
the 
> > > most part does our thinking for us.   The rationale behind this 
> is 
> > > that we are no longer responsible for our actions but are 
> > messengers 
> > > or defenders of the faith.
> > > > 
> > > > The skepticism of science is refreshing and provides a 
balance 
> > > against this ancient thinking.  I would prefer to deal with a 
> > > skeptical scientist that a bible/koran punching believer. 
> Imagine 
> > > trying to explain to a Muslim or a Christian that we are part 
of 
> a 
> > > quantum universe and that within that universe there are 
> multiple 
> > > choices that can be made.  Imagine telling them that we create 
> our 
> > > own reality and impact on  this reality with our thoughts and 
> > > emotions and that at no point is there the notion that whatever 
> > > choice we make will result in a reward or a punishment.  The 
> result 
> > > of my choices, which will either quicken or slower my 
> evolution.  
> > > IMO, it's as simple as that.
> > > > 
> > > > One of the Masters stated that when mankind is too far in 
> error 
> > > nature will intervene.  I can see this happening in the world 
> right 
> > > now.  It was predicted when the door closed on this evolution.  
> > > Those that slipped through at the last moment had the 
> opportunity 
> > to 
> > > re-think their existence.  If some of the sub-races disappear, 
I 
> > > imagine it is in the normal course of events, as the foundation 
> of 
> > > the sixth root race must take precedence over fourth and fith 
> root 
> > > races.
> > > > 
> > > > What is happening in the Middle East is very sad, but 
> > > understandable, if we are going to accept the teachings of the 
> > > ancient wisdom.
> > > > 
> > > > Cass
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >  
> > > > 
> > > > plcoles1 <plcoles1@> wrote:                                  
> > > Hello Pedro,
> > > >  I hope you are doing well.
> > > >  Thanks for your comments, I just thought I'd put forward a 
> few 
> > > thoughts.
> > > >  For me I think that the problem with the clash between 
> religious 
> > > fundamentalism and 
> > > >  reason really boils down to an issue of power.
> > > >  
> > > >  I have just finished watching an excellent series 
> > > called "Christianity the first 2000 years" 
> > > >  watching that series it really became clear how much of an 
> > > ongoing paradox religion can 
> > > >  be.
> > > >  Religion has been used as a means to control nations and 
> people 
> > > in order to maintain 
> > > >  status quo, any descent to the dogma of the religious 
> > > establishment then becomes a 
> > > >  threat to that `order'.
> > > >  
> > > >  Science and philosophy had to assert themselves in order to 
> be 
> > > able to evolve and 
> > > >  maintain integrity.
> > > >  As seems to happen, things move from one extreme to the 
other 
> > and 
> > > so it's a constant 
> > > >  balancing act.
> > > >  The idea to form a society to comparatively study religion 
> > > philosophy and science was a 
> > > >  brilliant idea.
> > > >  Its interesting that the title page of `Key to Theosophy' 
> reads :
> > > >  
> > > >  "Being a Clear Exposition, in the Form of Question and 
> Answer, 
> > of 
> > > the ETHICS, SCIENCE, 
> > > >  AND PHILOSOPHY for the Study of which The Theosophical 
> Society 
> > > has been Founded."
> > > >  Interesting that ethics is included here as well.
> > > >  
> > > >  Another statement in the Mahatma letters worth noting is 
> where 
> > > the Mahatma say's 
> > > >  `science is our best ally', it's an interesting statement to 
> > > ponder upon why that may be the 
> > > >  case?
> > > >  
> > > >  Science without ethics is dangerous just as religion with 
> reason 
> > > is also dangerous and so a 
> > > >  synthesis of some kind is needed in order to try and develop 
> a 
> > > healthy balance. 
> > > >  
> > > >  Much emotional attachment can be caught up in some belief 
> > systems 
> > > as well as fear based 
> > > >  mindsets which seem to maintain a very strong hold in the 
> > > skandhas, thus they pass on to 
> > > >  the new personality perhaps for many lifetimes to come.
> > > >  
> > > >  I think the purpose of the TS was to try and get people re-
> > > examining their beliefs and 
> > > >  attitudes in order help humanity move forward into a deeper 
> and 
> > > profounder 
> > > >  understanding of themselves and the cosmos by refining the 
> > > intellectual faculties by 
> > > >  tempered with compassion and tolerance.
> > > >  
> > > >  Cheers
> > > >  
> > > >  Perry
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > >      
> > > >                        
> > > > 
> > > >  		
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it 
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> > > > 
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>