Theos-Talk Archives (August 2006 Message tt00136)

Dear Perry,

Thank you for your reply. I recently went on a lecture tour through 
Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia. As you know, both Malaysia and 
Indonesia are Muslim countries and one should be careful about 
words, not only to avoid offending sensibilities but also to stay 
alive!

In Bandung, Indonesia, I was invited to give a lecture at a Catholic 
University in which the majority of the audience consisted of 
Muslims. The subject of my lecture was "The Perennial Philosophy and 
its Application in Daily Life", and it was based, in part, on the 
Three Fundamental Propositions of The Secret Doctrine. After the 
talk, my translator, a very dedicated theosophist who is also vice-
president of the Indo-Pacific Federation of the TS (Adyar), told me 
he was uncomfortable with me mentioning the Third Fundamental 
Proposition, and specifically commenting on the identity of every 
human Soul with the Universal Over-Soul. He told this teaching is 
frowned upon in Islam as God is ever transcendent and that I should 
consider myself fortunate that nobody in the audience objected to 
it. Just to give you an idea of the risk involved, many centuries 
ago a Sufi teacher, Mansur Al-Hallaj, was beheaded for affirming 
publically his union with God! Such are the risks of trying to 
disseminate Theosophy today.

A very interesting experience awaited me in Jakarta, the last leg 
(or neck, if you prefer!) of my tour. A commemorative meeting of the 
anniversary of the Indonesian TS (due to legal reasons they call 
themselves 'Federation of Indonesian Theosophists', as earlier 
governments, after the Independence from Holland, banned any 
association with foreign organisations) was organised and the former 
General Secretary, who is a Muslim, gave us a talk about the history 
of the TS in that country. I felt deeply moved by it. For example, 
during the Japanese occupation of Indonesia, in World War II, 
Indonesian theosophists kept the Society alive by holding meetings 
undergound, at the risk of their own lives.

After the talk, I asked the old gentleman for his opinion about the 
difficulty in conveying to audiences in that country, the 
fundamental identity between the human Soul and the Universal Over-
Soul. He said that for him that was not a problem as he understood 
God to be the unity of all existence. He is 84 and still holding 
study meetings in his house.

Sorry for my rambling. What I really wanted to say is that the 
mystical heart of religion, I feel, is still alive, whether it is in 
Judaism, Christianity or Islam. I felt it in Indonesia very strongly 
and it expressed itself in the attitude of kindness of the many 
people I met. And perhaps kindness (or compassion) is the soul of 
religion. 

Cheers,

Pedro
    

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "plcoles1" <plcoles1@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Cass and Pedro,
> Very thought provoking ! 
> 
> I think its important to remember that religion plays a very 
> important part in many peoples lives and so the need is to try and 
> integrate a more tolerant and inclusive dialogue between the 
> different religions.
> 
> Perhaps the integration of a more symbolic and mystical approach 
is a 
> possible answer away from literalist and dead letter 
interpretations.
> 
> Islam, Christianity and Judaism all have strong mystical and 
symbolic 
> traditions within them and this approach would also allow an 
opening 
> for tolerance not only inter-religiously but scientifically and 
> philosophically.
> 
> The more humanity can grasp that spirituality does not require 
below 
> to a religion but is more about compassionate action and 
> understanding the quicker humanities spiritual evolution can move 
> forward.
> 
> The trouble comes when `salvation' is seen as belonging only to 
only 
> certain people who belong to a particular sect or way of believing.
> 
> However another thing to consider I do think is that many of the 
> world's problems while they maybe dressed up in religious garb are 
> really underneath prompted and used by geopolitical power plays.
> 
> Power vested interests have a lot to gain by keeping people 
ignorant.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Perry
> 
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "pedro oliveira" <prmoliveira@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Cass and Perry,
> > 
> > Thank you for your views. I prefer to take a cautious approach 
to 
> > the issue of fundamentalism because I am convinced that it is 
not 
> > possible to understand it as if it were a black or white 
reality. 
> > The interview I mentioned in my earlier posting, with Professor 
> > Seyyed Hossein Nasr, made me think afresh about the problem. 
> > 
> > The issue of power in this question, mentioned by Perry, is 
quite 
> > evident. But then power-seeking placates every human 
organisation 
> on 
> > this earth and is not limited to religion. The dualism in 
religious 
> > structures/theologies, mentioned by Cass, is also evident, but I 
> > would faintheartedly suggest that not even science is free from 
it, 
> > and even in the broad daylight of the 21st century it still sees 
> > consciousness not as a primary reality but as an epiphenomenon 
of 
> > the brain chemistry!
> > 
> > The Theosophical Movement is also not without its contradictions 
in 
> > its attitude to religion. We have the forceful (and convincing) 
> > denunciation of religion as being responsible for two thirds of 
> > human misery (Mahatma Letters) and yet the Founders established 
a 
> > Society to study Comparative Religion! See, for example, the 
> > following letter:
> > 
> > 
> > GREETINGS to the Hindu, Parsee, Buddhist, English and other 
> > Delegates and to the Fellows herewith present.
> > Remember that though of various nationalities and religions you 
are 
> > nearly all the children of one mother, India. Remember and act 
> > accordingly. You have to make of the Anniversary ceremony 
> > celebration a grand success. You have to prove to your evil-
wishers 
> > and enemies that your cause, being strong and having taken its 
> stand 
> > upon the rock of truth, indeed can never be impeded in its 
progress 
> > by any opposition, however powerful, if you be all united and 
act 
> in 
> > concert. Be true, be loyal to your pledges, to your sacred duty, 
to 
> > your country, to your own conscience. Be tolerant to others, 
> respect 
> > the religious views of others if you would have your own 
respected. 
> > Sons of India, of old Aryavarta, whether adopted or sons of her 
> > blood, remember that you are theosophists and that Theosophy or 
> > Brahma Vidya is the mother of every old religion, forsaken and 
> > repudiated though she may now be by most of her ungrateful 
> children. 
> > Remember this, act accordingly and the rest will follow in due 
> > course.
> > With our sincere blessings,
> > 								
> > 	K.H.
> > 
> > (Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series, letter 2)
> > 
> > 
> > Did the Mahatmas give so much importance to religious 
understanding 
> > because they somehow knew religion would be an explosive 
influence 
> > in the twentieth century, when destituted of spiritual insight 
or 
> > mysticism? I confess I don't know. But what seems clear to me 
now 
> is 
> > that fundamentalism is not an isolated phenomenon, but an 
integral 
> > part of the cultural wars that started with the dawning of the 
> > modern age in the 17th century, with Cartesian and thought-
centred 
> > world views dominating the world. Interestingly enough, this is 
> also 
> > the period of dramatic expansion of colonialist rules around the 
> > globe.  
> > 
> > Pedro
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@> 
wrote:
> > >
> > > My thinking is that all religions are steeped in good/evil, 
> > reward/punishment axioms coming from a personal god, who for the 
> > most part does our thinking for us.   The rationale behind this 
is 
> > that we are no longer responsible for our actions but are 
> messengers 
> > or defenders of the faith.
> > > 
> > > The skepticism of science is refreshing and provides a balance 
> > against this ancient thinking.  I would prefer to deal with a 
> > skeptical scientist that a bible/koran punching believer. 
Imagine 
> > trying to explain to a Muslim or a Christian that we are part of 
a 
> > quantum universe and that within that universe there are 
multiple 
> > choices that can be made.  Imagine telling them that we create 
our 
> > own reality and impact on  this reality with our thoughts and 
> > emotions and that at no point is there the notion that whatever 
> > choice we make will result in a reward or a punishment.  The 
result 
> > of my choices, which will either quicken or slower my 
evolution.  
> > IMO, it's as simple as that.
> > > 
> > > One of the Masters stated that when mankind is too far in 
error 
> > nature will intervene.  I can see this happening in the world 
right 
> > now.  It was predicted when the door closed on this evolution.  
> > Those that slipped through at the last moment had the 
opportunity 
> to 
> > re-think their existence.  If some of the sub-races disappear, I 
> > imagine it is in the normal course of events, as the foundation 
of 
> > the sixth root race must take precedence over fourth and fith 
root 
> > races.
> > > 
> > > What is happening in the Middle East is very sad, but 
> > understandable, if we are going to accept the teachings of the 
> > ancient wisdom.
> > > 
> > > Cass
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > plcoles1 <plcoles1@> wrote:                                  
> > Hello Pedro,
> > >  I hope you are doing well.
> > >  Thanks for your comments, I just thought I'd put forward a 
few 
> > thoughts.
> > >  For me I think that the problem with the clash between 
religious 
> > fundamentalism and 
> > >  reason really boils down to an issue of power.
> > >  
> > >  I have just finished watching an excellent series 
> > called "Christianity the first 2000 years" 
> > >  watching that series it really became clear how much of an 
> > ongoing paradox religion can 
> > >  be.
> > >  Religion has been used as a means to control nations and 
people 
> > in order to maintain 
> > >  status quo, any descent to the dogma of the religious 
> > establishment then becomes a 
> > >  threat to that `order'.
> > >  
> > >  Science and philosophy had to assert themselves in order to 
be 
> > able to evolve and 
> > >  maintain integrity.
> > >  As seems to happen, things move from one extreme to the other 
> and 
> > so it's a constant 
> > >  balancing act.
> > >  The idea to form a society to comparatively study religion 
> > philosophy and science was a 
> > >  brilliant idea.
> > >  Its interesting that the title page of `Key to Theosophy' 
reads :
> > >  
> > >  "Being a Clear Exposition, in the Form of Question and 
Answer, 
> of 
> > the ETHICS, SCIENCE, 
> > >  AND PHILOSOPHY for the Study of which The Theosophical 
Society 
> > has been Founded."
> > >  Interesting that ethics is included here as well.
> > >  
> > >  Another statement in the Mahatma letters worth noting is 
where 
> > the Mahatma say's 
> > >  `science is our best ally', it's an interesting statement to 
> > ponder upon why that may be the 
> > >  case?
> > >  
> > >  Science without ethics is dangerous just as religion with 
reason 
> > is also dangerous and so a 
> > >  synthesis of some kind is needed in order to try and develop 
a 
> > healthy balance. 
> > >  
> > >  Much emotional attachment can be caught up in some belief 
> systems 
> > as well as fear based 
> > >  mindsets which seem to maintain a very strong hold in the 
> > skandhas, thus they pass on to 
> > >  the new personality perhaps for many lifetimes to come.
> > >  
> > >  I think the purpose of the TS was to try and get people re-
> > examining their beliefs and 
> > >  attitudes in order help humanity move forward into a deeper 
and 
> > profounder 
> > >  understanding of themselves and the cosmos by refining the 
> > intellectual faculties by 
> > >  tempered with compassion and tolerance.
> > >  
> > >  Cheers
> > >  
> > >  Perry
> > >  
> > >  
> > >      
> > >                        
> > > 
> > >  		
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it 
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> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>