Theos-Talk Archives (June 2006 Message tt00385)

Lenny, based on all that you said below, could you maybe continue on and
explain some of those things, as well as maybe some other things,
related to this particular idea that I THINK I remember reading about
years ago somewhere within the mass of theosophical literature -- and
that is that, and if I even remember this more or less correctly, and so
only said here in my own way, that when it comes to the ideas of "magic"
or "miracles", if not also some other so-called powers that an adept can
do, there is NO magic or miracle involved as people generally think
about them, but that the adept is only capable of speeding up the
natural processes in some way of whatever he makes appear or come into
or go out of existence quickly.

Thanks in advance.

John DeSantis
(Compiler)
http://www.wisdomworld.org
http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html
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http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org
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leonmaurer@aol.com wrote:

> You're welcome Cass. But, I still say there are no miracles... Even
> those
> supposedly carried out by alleged Magi's by their mostly imagined
> psychic
> manipulation of matter.
>
> As far as I understand it -- given the possibility in a limited sense
> that
> matter can be manipulated by mind (at least in moving its smaller
> molecular
> forms from one place to another such as precipitation, levitation or
> teleportation) -- the chemical changing of "water into wine," as
> inferred by that statement
> in the Bible, is not quite that easy. Therefore, the statement was
> most
> likely a metaphor referring to the teachings of the sermon on the
> mount... That
> used simple words to instill in the listeners the rapture of instantly
>
> understanding the meaning of the spiritual truths supposedly expounded
> by the mythical
> Jesus. Thus, the metaphor would imply that the plain truth, when fully
>
> ingested and digested in the mind, induces an analogous pleasure as if
> the water
> one is drinking were suddenly turned into an intoxicating wine.
>
> As HPB constantly reiterated in her discussions of such psychic
> phenomena
> (which she spoke of as, "Glamour") -- we should dispassionately judge
> all acts of
> supposed magic from a theosophical scientific and metaphysical point
> of view.
> Therefore, its obvious that the only way real (physical) water can be
> turned into wine is through the chemical process of fermentation of
> the fruit sugar
> dissolved in the water that composes over 90% of the fruit itself.
>
> To do that complex transformation (that must take considerable time
> and
> require specific substances in proper combination and circumstances)
> in an instant
> of willful thought -- no matter how adept the Magi in his knowledge of
> the
> correlation of occult forces -- would be, as HPB said, like passing
> the human
> body physically through a brick wall... That she also said was
> impossible.
>
> So, it's wrong to conflate or confuse "elementals" with the physical
> or
> chemical "elements." As theosophy sees it, they have nothing whatever
> to do with
> each other. Elementals do not control the natural processes of lawful
> physical chemical composition and decomposition. Nor can they overcome
> the natural
> attraction between molecules that hold together human bodies or brick
> walls,
> and prevent them from passing through each other.
>
> So, according to a theosophical metaphysical understanding, "Beam me
> up
> Scotty" was never more than a science fictional fantasy that could
> never be
> realized in real physical life on Earth or in space. (Although, I
> don't doubt that
> one's individual self, linked to the spirit, can easily travel
> wherever the
> mind and will directs it to.) In fact the concept of the fictional
> "transporter" actually assumes, wrongly, that the higher spiritual
> consciousness is
> dependently linked to the assembled molecules of the physical body --
> which
> theosophy denies.
>
> However, there's no denying that the astral body can travel where it
> wills,
> and can even manifest itself as being real to a properly tuned in or
> "glamorized" observer. On another tack, even the Star Trek concept
> itself is flawed...
> since, according to theosophy, human beings could never physically
> travel
> beyond the Solar System -- as their inner source of psychic, as well
> as chi,
> prana or vital energy, is immutably linked to the Sun's energies.
> Wouldn't that
> also make it impossible that we could ever meet intelligent beings
> from
> another solar system (let alone another galaxy) in the flesh?
>
> In another sense, BTW, the metaphor of turning water into wine also
> implies
> that each of us can determine our own response to our experiences
> within our
> own mind and consciousness. Thus, when one is thirsty for knowledge,
> its
> attainment can engender in us the same rapture that a man dying of
> thirst can
> experience with his first sip of water when he experiences its taste
> with the same
> pleasure as if it were the finest wine.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Lenny
>
> In a message dated 6/24/06 7:57:17 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes:
>
> > Thanks Leon, I agree with your comments below, the transfiguration
> of water
> > into wine, is merely the breaking down of the chemical elements and
> > reassembly by an act of will, and the control of the elementals -
> the same wayÝ that
> > Scotty was able to be beamed up and down!Ý
> >
> > I raised the notion of miracles in a theosophical sense in that
> Apollonius
> > was a master magi, I was questioning whether Jesus was in the same
> league.Ý If
> > he actually existed, and if he did exist, was he a Master or a Man?Ý
> I
> > personally cannot accept the crucifixion myth, in fact I believe it
> was pure
> > fiction - a good story to round up the converts into believing there
> was nothing
> > divine about them.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cass
> >
> > leonmaurer@aol.com wrote:Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý ÝÝ According to
>
> > theosophy, and its basis in pure metaphysical science -- there
> > are no "miracles." Everything that occurs in the universe is
> governed by
> > fundamental laws.ÝÝ The so called "miracles" of the Biblical
> (mythical)
> > Jesus are
> > simply the result of the ignorance or made up stories of the
> original
> > writers.ÝÝ
> > Whether they were performed by Apollonius or not, they still were
> not
> > miracles -- but simply based on an adept knowledge of the
> application of
> > such laws to
> > achieve effects that would cause ignorant observers to report them
> as
> > miracles.ÝÝ
> > Leon
> >
> > In a message dated 6/22/06 1:39:51 AM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes:
> >
> > > Yes, I know and understand the Jesus Myth.ï¿Å¨
> > >
> > > I am suggesting that the elder church fathers, plagarised the life
> of
> > > Apollonius of Tyana as being Jesus the Nazarene.ï¿Å¨
> > >
> > > Other suggestions include Jesus, a simple but spiritual man, was a
>
> > physical
> > > vessel only for the Lord Maitreya to speak through Jesus.ï¿Å¨
> Jesus
> > consciously
> > > agreed to lay down his personality (his lower self) at these
> times.
> > >
> > > HPB states that Jesus the Son of God and the crucifixion is a
> Myth,
> > > suggesting that he may have been a master who was willing to "be
> used" by
> > the higher
> > > forces for the greater good of humanity.ï¿Å¨ After three years or
> when the
> > > teachings had taken root, Jesus the Master, was not crucified but
> returned
> > to his
> > > life with Mary, endowed with new knowledge, but still, only a Man.
>
> > >
> > > Another suggestion is that the Crucifixion of Christ, is a symbol
> of the
> > 5th
> > > initiation of a Master.ï¿Å¨ï¿Å¨ No longer nailed to matter -
> resurrected
> > in
> > > spirit.ï¿Å¨ After this initiation it is almost impossible for the
> Adept to
> > be seduced
> > > by the Black Brotherhood.
> > >
> > > So I guess my question is, if Jesus was a legend, who was the man
> that
> > > performed all the miracles, etc?ï¿Å¨ Or is that also a legend?ï¿Å¨
>
> > Apollonius, who has
> > > been given no credit did perform all the miracles that were placed
> upon
> > Jesus.
> > >
> > > Cass
> > >
> >
> >
>
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>
> 


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