Theos-Talk Archives (June 2006 Message tt00383)

You're welcome Cass.   But, I still say there are no miracles... Even those 
supposedly carried out by alleged Magi's by their mostly imagined psychic 
manipulation of matter. 

As far as I understand it -- given the possibility in a limited sense that 
matter can be manipulated by mind (at least in moving its smaller molecular 
forms from one place to another such as precipitation, levitation or 
teleportation) -- the chemical changing of "water into wine," as inferred by that statement 
in the Bible, is not quite that easy.   Therefore, the statement was most 
likely a metaphor referring to the teachings of the sermon on the mount... That 
used simple words to instill in the listeners the rapture of instantly 
understanding the meaning of the spiritual truths supposedly expounded by the mythical 
Jesus.   Thus, the metaphor would imply that the plain truth, when fully 
ingested and digested in the mind, induces an analogous pleasure as if the water 
one is drinking were suddenly turned into an intoxicating wine. 

As HPB constantly reiterated in her discussions of such psychic phenomena 
(which she spoke of as, "Glamour") -- we should dispassionately judge all acts of 
supposed magic from a theosophical scientific and metaphysical point of view. 
  Therefore, its obvious that the only way real (physical) water can be 
turned into wine is through the chemical process of fermentation of the fruit sugar 
dissolved in the water that composes over 90% of the fruit itself.   

To do that complex transformation (that must take considerable time and 
require specific substances in proper combination and circumstances) in an instant 
of willful thought -- no matter how adept the Magi in his knowledge of the 
correlation of occult forces -- would be, as HPB said, like passing the human 
body physically through a brick wall... That she also said was impossible.   

So, it's wrong to conflate or confuse "elementals" with the physical or 
chemical "elements."   As theosophy sees it, they have nothing whatever to do with 
each other.   Elementals do not control the natural processes of lawful 
physical chemical composition and decomposition. Nor can they overcome the natural 
attraction between molecules that hold together human bodies or brick walls, 
and prevent them from passing through each other. 

So, according to a theosophical metaphysical understanding, "Beam me up 
Scotty" was never more than a science fictional fantasy that could never be 
realized in real physical life on Earth or in space.   (Although, I don't doubt that 
one's individual self, linked to the spirit, can easily travel wherever the 
mind and will directs it to.)   In fact the concept of the fictional 
"transporter" actually assumes, wrongly, that the higher spiritual consciousness is 
dependently linked to the assembled molecules of the physical body -- which 
theosophy denies.   

However, there's no denying that the astral body can travel where it wills, 
and can even manifest itself as being real to a properly tuned in or 
"glamorized" observer.   On another tack, even the Star Trek concept itself is flawed... 
since, according to theosophy, human beings could never physically travel 
beyond the Solar System -- as their inner source of psychic, as well as chi, 
prana or vital energy, is immutably linked to the Sun's energies.   Wouldn't that 
also make it impossible that we could ever meet intelligent beings from 
another solar system (let alone another galaxy) in the flesh?   

In another sense, BTW, the metaphor of turning water into wine also implies 
that each of us can determine our own response to our experiences within our 
own mind and consciousness.   Thus, when one is thirsty for knowledge, its 
attainment can engender in us the same rapture that a man dying of thirst can 
experience with his first sip of water when he experiences its taste with the same 
pleasure as if it were the finest wine.

Best wishes,

Lenny

In a message dated 6/24/06 7:57:17 PM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes:


> Thanks Leon, I agree with your comments below, the transfiguration of water 
> into wine, is merely the breaking down of the chemical elements and 
> reassembly by an act of will, and the control of the elementals - the same way  that 
> Scotty was able to be beamed up and down! 
> 
> I raised the notion of miracles in a theosophical sense in that Apollonius 
> was a master magi, I was questioning whether Jesus was in the same league.  If 
> he actually existed, and if he did exist, was he a Master or a Man?  I 
> personally cannot accept the crucifixion myth, in fact I believe it was pure 
> fiction - a good story to round up the converts into believing there was nothing 
> divine about them.
> 
> 
> 
> Cass
> 
> leonmaurer@aol.com wrote:                               According to 
> theosophy, and its basis in pure metaphysical science -- there
> are no "miracles." Everything that occurs in the universe is governed by
> fundamental laws.   The so called "miracles" of the Biblical (mythical) 
> Jesus are
> simply the result of the ignorance or made up stories of the original 
> writers.  
> Whether they were performed by Apollonius or not, they still were not
> miracles -- but simply based on an adept knowledge of the application of 
> such laws to
> achieve effects that would cause ignorant observers to report them as
> miracles.  
> Leon
> 
> In a message dated 6/22/06 1:39:51 AM, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes:
> 
> > Yes, I know and understand the Jesus Myth.ï¿Å¨
> >
> > I am suggesting that the elder church fathers, plagarised the life of
> > Apollonius of Tyana as being Jesus the Nazarene.ï¿Å¨
> >
> > Other suggestions include Jesus, a simple but spiritual man, was a 
> physical
> > vessel only for the Lord Maitreya to speak through Jesus.ï¿Å¨ Jesus 
> consciously
> > agreed to lay down his personality (his lower self) at these times.
> >
> > HPB states that Jesus the Son of God and the crucifixion is a Myth,
> > suggesting that he may have been a master who was willing to "be used" by 
> the higher
> > forces for the greater good of humanity.ï¿Å¨ After three years or when the
> > teachings had taken root, Jesus the Master, was not crucified but returned 
> to his
> > life with Mary, endowed with new knowledge, but still, only a Man.
> >
> > Another suggestion is that the Crucifixion of Christ, is a symbol of the 
> 5th
> > initiation of a Master.ï¿Å¨ï¿Å¨ No longer nailed to matter - resurrected 
> in
> > spirit.ï¿Å¨ After this initiation it is almost impossible for the Adept to 
> be seduced
> > by the Black Brotherhood.
> >
> > So I guess my question is, if Jesus was a legend, who was the man that
> > performed all the miracles, etc?ï¿Å¨ Or is that also a legend?ï¿Å¨ 
> Apollonius, who has
> > been given no credit did perform all the miracles that were placed upon 
> Jesus.
> >
> > Cass
> >
> 
> 



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