Jerry- Fundamentalist misrepresentations of the Bible
Apr 07, 2006 07:30 PM
by Vincent
Thanks much for sharing.
Blessings
Vince
--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear Vince,
>
> >Good to hear. But do you still consider yourself to be a
> >Theosophist if you are attending a Unitarian Church? You seem a
bit
> >at odds with Theosophy to me. Or maybe I'm mistaken.
> >
> You need to understand that Theosophy is not a religion. The only
> requirement for membership in the TS is a commitment to the
concept of
> universal brotherhood. There are no teachings nor articles of
faith one
> must ascribe to. As far as the Theosophical Organizations are
> concerned, one may be a member of any religion and still be a
member of
> a Theosophical Organization. Blavatsky's definition of
a "Theosophist"
> is one who lives a life in pure altruism. She once remarked that
in her
> lifetime, she had met a half dozen people she considered a
Theosophist.
> She did not mention whether or not they were members of the
Theosophical
> Society. So, frankly, I never thought of myself as meeting the
very
> high standards she had held for that designation. So, I do not
call
> myself a "Theosophist." When asked, I call myself a "student of
Theosophy."
>
> On the other hand, there are a lot of members of the TS who treat
> Theosophy as if it were a religion. No doubt, the majority of
people
> you have met at Olcott fit this profile. But, that is an
individual
> choice, and not what the founders had ever intended.
>
> As for the Unitarian church, they only ask that members respect
the
> beliefs of other members. When we went to the meetings where they
are
> supposed to go through the history of the Church etc. the minister
asked
> how many of us believed in some kind of an after life. Out of the
27
> present, my wife and I were the only two who raised their hands.
The
> Unitarian Church is probably the most liberal of the Christian
> churches. Our church has a pagan sub-group for women only. One
of our
> students belongs to this. She says that they meet together, make
> magical implements, burn colored candles, invoke the goddess for
favors,
> get naked, dance, and swim. All very nice, I guess.
>
> Twice a year, our organization, Alexandria West, jointly sponsors
public
> seminars with them. We are currently planning an all day seminar
on
> religious rights, the constitution and public policies. There
will be
> professors and ministers from several view points who will be
> presenting. However, we make a conscious decision not to invite a
> representative from the ultra-religious right for fear of
organized
> disruptions. So, our representatives are from the moderate left,
> centrist, and moderate right.
>
> >You seem a bit
> >at odds with Theosophy to me. Or maybe I'm mistaken.
> >
> Over all, I am very supportive of Theosophy. I am at odds with
about
> three individuals in the Adyar TS over their policies. These
three
> people are in leadership positions and wield a great amount of
> influence. I do not agree with their policies and have spoken up
at
> every opportunity over the last 40 years. However, the issues are
> complicated and require a good understanding of the history of the
> movement which is not published in their approved books. So, it
goes
> without saying that my protests go largely unheard and, by most of
the
> membership, not understood. Still, I persevere, though have
become
> weary of the effort as of late.
>
> >I will inquire about Vonda Urban at the Wheaton facility. I'm
sure
> >that they've heard of her. Thank you so much.
> >
> She is known there, but not a member of that Organization. I must
warn
> you that her classes are very serious, she is a no nonsense
person, and
> expects a real commitment from her students. She would have no
patience
> with a lot of side discussion about the merits of Christian
theology
> versus the merits of Theosophical teachings. She is looking for
serious
> students who are willing to commit to study and to living the
life.
>
> >Interesting website. I've bookmarked it. I tend to use the
> >term 'universal truth'. I'm not sure if that's perhaps
consistent
> >with 'perennialism'.
> >
> Perennialism is a notion that there is a body of ancient and
timeless
> knowledge which is found in common in all the major religions and
> spiritualities. One of the best known living expounders of
perennialism
> today is Huston Smith, who promotes a type of Christian
perennialism.
> This is also a group which promotes an Islamic perennialism.
Blavatsky
> promoted still another, more universal perennialism. Thus,
Theosophy is
> a type of perennialism. There are several names which have the
same
> approximate meaning: The perennial wisdom; the Tradition, the
ancient
> Tradition, the Ancient Wisdom; the perennial philosophy etc.
>
> >We have different philosophies it seems, but that's okay. More
> >power to ya.
> >
> Well, we tried to have a Board which is committed to service over
making
> money. My wife worked in Public service before becoming a
professor.
> So, she also understands the practical application. Also, one
member of
> our Board was the budget director of a major city in California.
She
> also sit on Boards for several other non-profit organizations. Her
> husband, who we consult with, was the city manager for that same
city.
> So, I feel that we have the realities of what happens to non-
profits
> pretty well understood. Of course, after we are all dead, things
can
> change. We understand that.
>
> >Exactly. If not much sooner. In fact, my personal belief is
that
> >the public corruption begins immediately upon the desire and/or
> >acquisition of positional authority.
> >
> I would go along with that.
>
> >So you perform your discussions on a text by text basis then?
> >
> Sometimes around specific sacred texts, and sometimes around other
> texts, such as modern studies etc.
>
> >I would say that the authors literally believed what they wrote,
> >even if I do not always agree with them. The early Jews (and
even
> >Jesus himself) believed in a literal Adam and Eve. Whether I do
or
> >not is another matter entirely.
> >
> I think that research into what the early Jews actually believed
is just
> beginning. Of course, we have long understood the positions of
the
> Yahweh cult priesthood in Jerusalem and their Pharisee
opposition. Now,
> with the Dead Sea scrolls, we are for the first time beginning to
> understand the Essenes, which were very different from the Yahweh
cult.
> There were also numerous other groups such as the Therapeutes,
which we
> probably never will understand. There was also the very
Hellenized Jews
> of Alexandria who had their own Temple and priesthood. A new
field is
> beginning which is revealing the beliefs of the general
population,
> which we are beginning to discover, was often very different from
the
> Jerusalem center. There is also the beliefs of the pre-bronze age
Jews,
> which we are now just beginning to understand. So, a whole new
world of
> understanding is opening up to us since the days of depending upon
the
> Bible and Josephus as the primary sources.
>
> [Vince]
>
> >>Have you actually found counter-evidence to the biblical
records, or have the biblical records simply not been affirmatively
validated to you?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> [JJHE]
>
> >How do you define and what would you accept as "counter-evidence"?
> >
> [Vince]
>
> >I am defining counter-evidence as any factual proof that would
stand
> >up in a court case.
> >
> Court cases work from the testimony of eye witnesses and physical
> evidence. Obviously we cannot call forth eyewitnesses. For the
Gospel
> accounts, only the most conservative of Theologians still believe
that
> the Gospels were actually written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
At
> this point, I can't imagine an objective Judge who would admit
these
> gospels as eyewitness testimony without solid evidence of their
> authorship. So, unless they can somehow be proven that these
Gospels
> were first hand eyewitness accounts, they would not be permitted.
As for
> physical evidence: almost every Catholic church in the world has a
> "piece of the true cross" in their treasury. My wife once
remarked that
> it must have been a huge cross. The locations in Israel for
Jesus'
> birth, Baptism, crucifixion, burial etc. were designated by
> Constantine's mother in the 4th century--obviously based more upon
faith
> than any archaeological or historical knowledge. Obviously, the
> question of Adam and Eve would be even more problematical. So, I
would
> say that we do not have a case which can be tried in a court of
law.
>
> Best
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Vincent wrote:
>
> >Jerry-
> >
> >You wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>You need to understand that I live in California, 2,000 miles
away
> >>
> >>
> >from
> >
> >
> >>Olcott. So, I am in no position to attend their classes etc.
I,
> >>
> >>
> >of
> >
> >
> >>course, know many of the presenters personally and/or through
> >>
> >>
> >their
> >
> >
> >>publications, and I have varying opinions, depending upon who
you
> >>
> >>
> >have
> >
> >
> >>in mind. If I lived in the area, I would probably attend some
> >>presentations and not others. Also, it might help you to know
> >>
> >>
> >that I
> >
> >
> >>have been a TS member for forty-three years, studied, led
> >>
> >>
> >classes,
> >
> >
> >>presented lectures, organized conferences, attended conventions
> >>
> >>
> >etc. for
> >
> >
> >>more years than many of the presenters you have heard at Olcott.
> >>
> >>
> >What I
> >
> >
> >>am saying is; much of what you are hearing and seeing at Olcott
> >>
> >>
> >for the
> >
> >
> >>first time is old hat for me.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Good to hear. But do you still consider yourself to be a
> >Theosophist if you are attending a Unitarian Church? You seem a
bit
> >at odds with Theosophy to me. Or maybe I'm mistaken.
> >
> >
> >
> >>Your use of "they" makes this a pretty general question, asking
> >>
> >>
> >for a
> >
> >
> >>blanket evaluation. In fairness I cannot do that. Instead, I
will
> >>answer this way: Each of those presenters have their own
> >>
> >>
> >understanding
> >
> >
> >>and perspective of the Secret Doctrine and of ethics. Olcott
has
> >>certain favorites who they ask to speak on the Secret Doctrine,
so
> >>
> >>
> >I
> >
> >
> >>have a general idea of who you have heard. Of those who I know,
> >>
> >>
> >or have
> >
> >
> >>read their writings, some are very good. Others, in my opinion,
> >>
> >>
> >frankly
> >
> >
> >>don't know what they are talking about. As for "ethics" that is
a
> >>subject close to my heart, as well as my wife's. If you want a
> >>recommendation, the most knowledgeable person I know of in terms
> >>
> >>
> >of
> >
> >
> >>Theosophy, Blavatsky, Secret Doctrine etc. who teaches and lives
> >>Theosophical ethics, is a woman named Vonda Urban. I don't know
if
> >>
> >>
> >she
> >
> >
> >>has ever been invited to speak at Olcott, but she does (or did)
> >>
> >>
> >speak at
> >
> >
> >>various Lodges in the Chicago area. You might check her out and
> >>
> >>
> >let me
> >
> >
> >>know what you think. If you cannot locate her, then email me
> >>
> >>
> >privately
> >
> >
> >>and I will give you the particulars on how to contact her, and a
> >>
> >>
> >letter
> >
> >
> >>of introduction. She lives in the central Chicago area and and
> >>
> >>
> >has been
> >
> >
> >>teaching Theosophy continuously for 30 years that I know of. My
> >>
> >>
> >wife
> >
> >
> >>studied with her for a couple of years before moving to
> >>
> >>
> >California.
> >
> >
> >>Since my wife's doctoral dissertation was about teaching ethics
in
> >>public institutions, teaches the subject at our California State
> >>University, and has been a student of Theosophy for over 25
years,
> >>
> >>
> >I
> >
> >
> >>think she is a good judge of who really understands and
practices
> >>Theosophical ethics. She gives Vonda an A+. As for Vonda's
> >>understanding of Theosophical teachings, I also give her an A+.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I will inquire about Vonda Urban at the Wheaton facility. I'm
sure
> >that they've heard of her. Thank you so much.
> >
> >
> >
> >>Good background. Perhaps you have some advice for us?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I'm not sure what your organizational needs are. What specific
> >needs do you have, if any?
> >
> >
> >
> >>We promote perennialism. Perennialism is the notion that all
the
> >>
> >>
> >wold's
> >
> >
> >>major religions and spiritual traditions have a common resource
of
> >>ideas--call it a primordial tradition, or a wisdom tradition, or
> >>
> >>
> >an
> >
> >
> >>ancient wisdom. We explore the world's literature and
traditions,
> >>
> >>
> >hold
> >
> >
> >>classes, seminars, field trips, meditation retreats, and publish
a
> >>quarterly journal. We have a web site, but it is in desperate
> >>
> >>
> >need of
> >
> >
> >>up-dating. But you can get some basic information about us at:
> >>www.alexandriawest.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Interesting website. I've bookmarked it. I tend to use the
> >term 'universal truth'. I'm not sure if that's perhaps
consistent
> >with 'perennialism'.
> >
> >
> >
> >>Yes. I have seen this and have from the beginning been cognizant
> >>
> >>
> >of the
> >
> >
> >>possibility of this fate for Alexandria West after I am dead.
> >>
> >>
> >This may
> >
> >
> >>be a natural down hill course for organizations, does not have
to
> >>
> >>
> >be the
> >
> >
> >>case. I have seen non profits in Los Angeles which are over 50
> >>
> >>
> >years
> >
> >
> >>old which did not fall into this trap. It is not fated. Much
> >>
> >>
> >depends
> >
> >
> >>upon how the successive Board members hold to the original
values
> >>
> >>
> >of the
> >
> >
> >>organization. I do agree that such a fall is related to size.
As
> >>
> >>
> >an
> >
> >
> >>organization get wealthier, opportunities open for those greedy
> >>
> >>
> >for a
> >
> >
> >>piece of the pie or for personal power. But, once again, this
too
> >>
> >>
> >does
> >
> >
> >>not have to be. I could go into particulars about one or two
> >>organizations, but then this would become a very long post.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >We have different philosophies it seems, but that's okay. More
> >power to ya.
> >
> >
> >
> >>Yes, we are aware of these issues. My wife teaches Public
> >>
> >>
> >Administration.
> >
> >Sounds tuff.
> >
> >
> >
> >>You sound like you have taken one of my wife's courses :-)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Lolol. It is more experiential for me.
> >
> >
> >
> >>And there begins the public corruption.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Exactly. If not much sooner. In fact, my personal belief is
that
> >the public corruption begins immediately upon the desire and/or
> >acquisition of positional authority.
> >
> >
> >
> >>Our approach is to engage each text individually from a cultural
> >>
> >>
> >and
> >
> >
> >>historical context. Comparisons then come up in discussions.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >So you perform your discussions on a text by text basis then?
> >
> >
> >
> >>perhaps in your retirement...
> >>
> >>
> >
> >If it will do me any good then, lolol. I'm not currently relaxed.
> >
> >
> >
> >>Interesting exegesis. Then, as an historical work, you would
say
> >>
> >>
> >that
> >
> >
> >>there was literally a first couple name Adam and Eve who lived
in
> >>
> >>
> >a
> >
> >
> >>garden and conversed with a serpent....?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I would say that the authors literally believed what they wrote,
> >even if I do not always agree with them. The early Jews (and
even
> >Jesus himself) believed in a literal Adam and Eve. Whether I do
or
> >not is another matter entirely.
> >
> >
> >
> >>How do you define and what would you accept as "counter-
evidence"?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I am defining counter-evidence as any factual proof that would
stand
> >up in a court case.
> >
> >Blessings
> >
> >Vince
> >
> >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Dear Vincent,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Okay, that's very nice. Then how do you feel about the various
> >>>class sessions with their respective speakers?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>You need to understand that I live in California, 2,000 miles
away
> >>
> >>
> >from
> >
> >
> >>Olcott. So, I am in no position to attend their classes etc.
I,
> >>
> >>
> >of
> >
> >
> >>course, know many of the presenters personally and/or through
> >>
> >>
> >their
> >
> >
> >>publications, and I have varying opinions, depending upon who
you
> >>
> >>
> >have
> >
> >
> >>in mind. If I lived in the area, I would probably attend some
> >>presentations and not others. Also, it might help you to know
> >>
> >>
> >that I
> >
> >
> >>have been a TS member for forty-three years, studied, led
> >>
> >>
> >classes,
> >
> >
> >>presented lectures, organized conferences, attended conventions
> >>
> >>
> >etc. for
> >
> >
> >>more years than many of the presenters you have heard at Olcott.
> >>
> >>
> >What I
> >
> >
> >>am saying is; much of what you are hearing and seeing at Olcott
> >>
> >>
> >for the
> >
> >
> >>first time is old hat for me.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Do they stay true to the original spirit of the organization?
> >>>
> >>>
> >For example, I am
> >
> >
> >>>attending a number of the directors' classes (Ethics of the
> >>>
> >>>
> >Secret
> >
> >
> >>>Doctrine; The Law of Cycles, etc.) at the Wheaton Headquarters,
> >>>coupled with sporadic attendance when a new guest speaker is
> >>>
> >>>
> >invited
> >
> >
> >>>each week.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Your use of "they" makes this a pretty general question, asking
> >>
> >>
> >for a
> >
> >
> >>blanket evaluation. In fairness I cannot do that. Instead, I
will
> >>answer this way: Each of those presenters have their own
> >>
> >>
> >understanding
> >
> >
> >>and perspective of the Secret Doctrine and of ethics. Olcott
has
> >>certain favorites who they ask to speak on the Secret Doctrine,
so
> >>
> >>
> >I
> >
> >
> >>have a general idea of who you have heard. Of those who I know,
> >>
> >>
> >or have
> >
> >
> >>read their writings, some are very good. Others, in my opinion,
> >>
> >>
> >frankly
> >
> >
> >>don't know what they are talking about. As for "ethics" that is
a
> >>subject close to my heart, as well as my wife's. If you want a
> >>recommendation, the most knowledgeable person I know of in terms
> >>
> >>
> >of
> >
> >
> >>Theosophy, Blavatsky, Secret Doctrine etc. who teaches and lives
> >>Theosophical ethics, is a woman named Vonda Urban. I don't know
if
> >>
> >>
> >she
> >
> >
> >>has ever been invited to speak at Olcott, but she does (or did)
> >>
> >>
> >speak at
> >
> >
> >>various Lodges in the Chicago area. You might check her out and
> >>
> >>
> >let me
> >
> >
> >>know what you think. If you cannot locate her, then email me
> >>
> >>
> >privately
> >
> >
> >>and I will give you the particulars on how to contact her, and a
> >>
> >>
> >letter
> >
> >
> >>of introduction. She lives in the central Chicago area and and
> >>
> >>
> >has been
> >
> >
> >>teaching Theosophy continuously for 30 years that I know of. My
> >>
> >>
> >wife
> >
> >
> >>studied with her for a couple of years before moving to
> >>
> >>
> >California.
> >
> >
> >>Since my wife's doctoral dissertation was about teaching ethics
in
> >>public institutions, teaches the subject at our California State
> >>University, and has been a student of Theosophy for over 25
years,
> >>
> >>
> >I
> >
> >
> >>think she is a good judge of who really understands and
practices
> >>Theosophical ethics. She gives Vonda an A+. As for Vonda's
> >>understanding of Theosophical teachings, I also give her an A+.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Wow, that sounds pretty industrious. I'm glad that you have
such
> >>>
> >>>
> >a
> >
> >
> >>>positive focus. I was a corporate instructor myself for many
> >>>
> >>>
> >years,
> >
> >
> >>>although that was all strictly business, working for
millionaires
> >>>that I had never personally met. I taught a couple hundred
> >>>employees between two different companies, both on-site and in-
> >>>classroom, hiring half of the ones that I taught. I taught
> >>>
> >>>
> >package
> >
> >
> >>>handlers at UPS, and inventory specialists at RGIS. Two
> >>>
> >>>
> >different
> >
> >
> >>>companies.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Good background. Perhaps you have some advice for us?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>What things do you teach for your non-profit educational
> >>>organization that you run?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>We promote perennialism. Perennialism is the notion that all
the
> >>
> >>
> >wold's
> >
> >
> >>major religions and spiritual traditions have a common resource
of
> >>ideas--call it a primordial tradition, or a wisdom tradition, or
> >>
> >>
> >an
> >
> >
> >>ancient wisdom. We explore the world's literature and
traditions,
> >>
> >>
> >hold
> >
> >
> >>classes, seminars, field trips, meditation retreats, and publish
a
> >>quarterly journal. We have a web site, but it is in desperate
> >>
> >>
> >need of
> >
> >
> >>up-dating. But you can get some basic information about us at:
> >>www.alexandriawest.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>That's very nice. And I do believe that this is how most non-
> >>>profits start out in the beginning. And some, like yours, can
> >>>
> >>>
> >even
> >
> >
> >>>extend this positive focus for several decades. However, I
> >>>
> >>>
> >suggest
> >
> >
> >>>that size and time inevitably come into play with growing
> >>>organizations. As organizations grow larger over many extended
> >>>decades, they become increasingly more rigid in their
policies.
> >>>
> >>>
> >I
> >
> >
> >>>call it the 'cycle of governments' for lack of a better term.
> >>>
> >>>
> >This
> >
> >
> >>>is mostly size and time related.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Yes. I have seen this and have from the beginning been cognizant
> >>
> >>
> >of the
> >
> >
> >>possibility of this fate for Alexandria West after I am dead.
> >>
> >>
> >This may
> >
> >
> >>be a natural down hill course for organizations, does not have
to
> >>
> >>
> >be the
> >
> >
> >>case. I have seen non profits in Los Angeles which are over 50
> >>
> >>
> >years
> >
> >
> >>old which did not fall into this trap. It is not fated. Much
> >>
> >>
> >depends
> >
> >
> >>upon how the successive Board members hold to the original
values
> >>
> >>
> >of the
> >
> >
> >>organization. I do agree that such a fall is related to size.
As
> >>
> >>
> >an
> >
> >
> >>organization get wealthier, opportunities open for those greedy
> >>
> >>
> >for a
> >
> >
> >>piece of the pie or for personal power. But, once again, this
too
> >>
> >>
> >does
> >
> >
> >>not have to be. I could go into particulars about one or two
> >>organizations, but then this would become a very long post.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>For example, let's say that your organization grows in the next
> >>>
> >>>
> >few
> >
> >
> >>>years, to the point where you begin to require paid staffing.
> >>>Hypothetically, you may even boost up to 100-1000 volunteers,
> >>>
> >>>
> >whom
> >
> >
> >>>you won't be able to directly manage without hiring 5-10 paid
> >>>staff. As you do this, you'll invariably need to extend a
rigid
> >>>ruleset concerning safety procedures, legal procedures and the
> >>>like. The reason that you'll begin enforcing a few strict
rules
> >>>here and there (even though remaining flexible on many, if not
> >>>
> >>>
> >most)
> >
> >
> >>>is because some volunteer(s) will eventually do something
> >>>
> >>>
> >flagrant
> >
> >
> >>>that counters the best interests of the organizational agenda.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Yes, we are aware of these issues. My wife teaches Public
> >>
> >>
> >Administration.
> >
> >
> >>>What I'm really trying to communicate is the concept that every
> >>>national government, corporate business, educational system or
> >>>religious church begins as somewhat of a rebel faction (whether
> >>>bloody or polite) seeking independence from a cruel 'overlord'
> >>>organization. All organizations fall into this category,
albeit
> >>>intensity and degree vary.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>You sound like you have taken one of my wife's courses :-)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Every independent entrepreneur is a dissatisfied rebel at heart
> >>>(some bloody and some polite), who detests the way that things
> >>>
> >>>
> >were
> >
> >
> >>>done by the previous 'overlord'. Therefore a new and better
> >>>government system is built, due to failures of the previous.
> >>>
> >>>
> >Until,
> >
> >
> >>>of course, with size and time, it too becomes increasingly
> >>>political. Some moreso and some less so. Size and time are
> >>>responsible for this, requiring more rigid rulesets. The
> >>>
> >>>
> >rulesets
> >
> >
> >>>create red tape, and thus we have politics. You must resist
the
> >>>windy elements themselves, for times always change. The 'cycle
> >>>
> >>>
> >of
> >
> >
> >>>governments'.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>And there begins the public corruption.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I have a number of religious books outside of Christianity. In
> >>>fact, one quite extraordinary work is "World Scripture: A
> >>>Comparative Anthology of Sacred Texts" authored by the
> >>>
> >>>
> >International
> >
> >
> >>>Religious Foundation and published by Paragon House. This 900
> >>>
> >>>
> >page
> >
> >
> >>>volume topically categorizes excerpts from all prominent
ancient
> >>>religious texts from religions across the world, with no
> >>>
> >>>
> >commentary
> >
> >
> >>>attached. It is a bible of bibles, so to speak. Comprised of
> >>>
> >>>
> >all
> >
> >
> >>>primary world religions. You may wish to glance at it, if you
> >>>haven't encountered this treasure already.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Our approach is to engage each text individually from a cultural
> >>
> >>
> >and
> >
> >
> >>historical context. Comparisons then come up in discussions.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Now do I actually have time and energy to read entire ancient
> >>>
> >>>
> >texts
> >
> >
> >>>beyond the bible? No, I don't. Does a corporate manager have
> >>>
> >>>
> >time
> >
> >
> >>>to become a doctor and a lawyer and a psychiatrist and an
> >>>
> >>>
> >accountant
> >
> >
> >>>simultaneously? Does such constitute wisdom? What I am
> >>>
> >>>
> >relegated
> >
> >
> >>>to do is specialize in one or two areas (the Bible in this
case),
> >>>and turn to outside teachers for the rest.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>perhaps in your retirement...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I have many precious books in my library, but I haven't
actually
> >>>read them all thoroughly. So I acquire teachers along the
road,
> >>>here and there, to fill me in on what I've missed. These
> >>>
> >>>
> >teachers
> >
> >
> >>>illumine me to small excerpts of their own fields of
specialty.
> >>>
> >>>
> >The
> >
> >
> >>>corporate manager hires the doctor, the lawyer, the
psychiatrist
> >>>
> >>>
> >and
> >
> >
> >>>the accountant, thereby gaining additional, albeit miniscule,
> >>>fragments of knowledge here and there.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>As we all must do.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hhmm, I come to different conclusions, but we've obviously used
> >>>different sources.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>No doubt.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Here is the most basic breakdown, with minor deviations
contained
> >>>therein:
> >>>
> >>>1. Genesis to Esther (Historical Old Testament)
> >>>2. Job to Malachi (Metaphorical Old Testament)
> >>>3. Matthew to Acts (Historical New Testament)
> >>>4. Romans to Revelation (Metaphorical New Testament)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Interesting exegesis. Then, as an historical work, you would
say
> >>
> >>
> >that
> >
> >
> >>there was literally a first couple name Adam and Eve who lived
in
> >>
> >>
> >a
> >
> >
> >>garden and conversed with a serpent....?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Have you actually found counter-evidence to the biblical
records,
> >>>
> >>>
> >or
> >
> >
> >>>have the biblical records simply not been affirmatively
validated
> >>>
> >>>
> >to
> >
> >
> >>>you?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>How do you define and what would you accept as "counter-
evidence"?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hence spiritual clairvoyace is superior to the mere visions and
> >>>dreams. The dreamer is asleep and masked, operating via
> >>>subconsciously-derived symbols. But the spiritual clairvoyant
is
> >>>fully aware and awake, with all dream imageries having fully
> >>>dissipated. Dreams are merely a veil which serve to
temporarily
> >>>protect the ego consciousness from it's own disintegration
> >>>
> >>>
> >incurred
> >
> >
> >>>by spiritual enlightenment.
> >>>
> >>>Numbers 12
> >>>6 He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you,
> >>>
> >>>
> >I,
> >
> >
> >>>the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall
> >>>
> >>>
> >speak
> >
> >
> >>>with him in a dream.
> >>>7 "Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My
> >>>household;
> >>>8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark
> >>>sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you
> >>>
> >>>
> >not
> >
> >
> >>>afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?"
> >>>(NAS95)
> >>>
> >>>Here we see a differentiation between slumbering dreamers and
> >>>spiritually conscious revelators.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Yes. Well said, and a good quote.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>The subconscious
> >>>psyche has many dark things contained within, which often go
> >>>unattended and uncleansed. The most severe instances of the
> >>>subconscious psyche opening up too quickly result in mass
murder
> >>>cases and severe mental derangements. However, the wise sages
of
> >>>antiquity take the slow road.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Yes.
> >>
> >>Best,
> >>Jerry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Vincent wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Jerry-
> >>>
> >>>You wrote:
> >>>
> >>>"Actually I attribute the failures of the Theosophical Society
to
> >>>the leadership. The Theosophical Society and its members were
the
> >>>victims. IMO, its greatest success today has been their
efforts
> >>>
> >>>
> >to
> >
> >
> >>>publish and keep in print the collected writings of Blavatsky.
> >>>
> >>>
> >They
> >
> >
> >>>have an outstanding library at the National Headquarters. They
> >>>publish some important classics. I like many of its members."
> >>>
> >>>Okay, that's very nice. Then how do you feel about the various
> >>>class sessions with their respective speakers? Do they stay
true
> >>>
> >>>
> >to
> >
> >
> >>>the original spirit of the organization? For example, I am
> >>>attending a number of the directors' classes (Ethics of the
> >>>
> >>>
> >Secret
> >
> >
> >>>Doctrine; The Law of Cycles, etc.) at the Wheaton Headquarters,
> >>>coupled with sporadic attendance when a new guest speaker is
> >>>
> >>>
> >invited
> >
> >
> >>>each week.
> >>>
> >>>"Yes, non profits organizations, like any other effort requires
> >>>money to operate. And, I suspect that certain non profit
> >>>organizations, like United Way, is primarily oriented to
> >>>
> >>>
> >collecting
> >
> >
> >>>and distributing money. With its highly paid officers
including
> >>>
> >>>
> >its
> >
> >
> >>>CEO which collects a multi-million dollar salary, I'm sure that
> >>>there is a lot of politics."
> >>>
> >>>Indeed.
> >>>
> >>>"On the other hand, such places as the United Way have move far
> >>>
> >>>
> >away
> >
> >
> >>>from the original concept of non-profits, and are not
necessarily
> >>
> >>
> >>>representative. I am president-founder of a non-profit
> >>>
> >>>
> >educational
> >
> >
> >>>organization. The Board meetings typically last for 3 to 4
> >>>
> >>>
> >hours.
> >
> >
> >>>The treasurer's report takes 5 to 10 minutes. The rest of the
> >>>
> >>>
> >time
> >
> >
> >>>we talk about planning programs, classes, our journal etc.
> >>>
> >>>
> >Rather
> >
> >
> >>>than talking about how to get more money, we talk about and
plan
> >>>services."
> >>>
> >>>Wow, that sounds pretty industrious. I'm glad that you have
such
> >>>
> >>>
> >a
> >
> >
> >>>positive focus. I was a corporate instructor myself for many
> >>>
> >>>
> >years,
> >
> >
> >>>although that was all strictly business, working for
millionaires
> >>>that I had never personally met. I taught a couple hundred
> >>>employees between two different companies, both on-site and in-
> >>>classroom, hiring half of the ones that I taught. I taught
> >>>
> >>>
> >package
> >
> >
> >>>handlers at UPS, and inventory specialists at RGIS. Two
> >>>
> >>>
> >different
> >
> >
> >>>companies. What things do you teach for your non-profit
> >>>
> >>>
> >educational
> >
> >
> >>>organization that you run?
> >>>
> >>>"No one on the Board, or connected in any way with the
> >>>
> >>>
> >organization
> >
> >
> >>>receives a salary. In fact, Board members are required to
donate
> >>>
> >>>
> >a
> >
> >
> >>>predetermined amount of their own money to the organization.
> >>>However, volunteers are reimbursed for out of pocket expenses--
> >>>
> >>>
> >but
> >
> >
> >>>not for their time. What I am saying is that is is quite
> >>>
> >>>
> >possible
> >
> >
> >>>for non profit organizations to be primarily focused on service-
-
> >>>
> >>>
> >not
> >
> >
> >>>getting money. They do not have to be "money centered". We
have
> >>>proved that. Ours are on a donation bases. Some people pay
and
> >>>some don't"
> >>>
> >>>That's very nice. And I do believe that this is how most non-
> >>>profits start out in the beginning. And some, like yours, can
> >>>
> >>>
> >even
> >
> >
> >>>extend this positive focus for several decades. However, I
> >>>
> >>>
> >suggest
> >
> >
> >>>that size and time inevitably come into play with growing
> >>>organizations. As organizations grow larger over many extended
> >>>decades, they become increasingly more rigid in their
policies.
> >>>
> >>>
> >I
> >
> >
> >>>call it the 'cycle of governments' for lack of a better term.
> >>>
> >>>
> >This
> >
> >
> >>>is mostly size and time related.
> >>>
> >>>For example, let's say that your organization grows in the next
> >>>
> >>>
> >few
> >
> >
> >>>years, to the point where you begin to require paid staffing.
> >>>Hypothetically, you may even boost up to 100-1000 volunteers,
> >>>
> >>>
> >whom
> >
> >
> >>>you won't be able to directly manage without hiring 5-10 paid
> >>>staff. As you do this, you'll invariably need to extend a
rigid
> >>>ruleset concerning safety procedures, legal procedures and the
> >>>like. The reason that you'll begin enforcing a few strict
rules
> >>>here and there (even though remaining flexible on many, if not
> >>>
> >>>
> >most)
> >
> >
> >>>is because some volunteer(s) will eventually do something
> >>>
> >>>
> >flagrant
> >
> >
> >>>that counters the best interests of the organizational agenda.
> >>>
> >>>What I'm really trying to communicate is the concept that every
> >>>national government, corporate business, educational system or
> >>>religious church begins as somewhat of a rebel faction (whether
> >>>bloody or polite) seeking independence from a cruel 'overlord'
> >>>organization. All organizations fall into this category,
albeit
> >>>intensity and degree vary.
> >>>
> >>>Every independent entrepreneur is a dissatisfied rebel at heart
> >>>(some bloody and some polite), who detests the way that things
> >>>
> >>>
> >were
> >
> >
> >>>done by the previous 'overlord'. Therefore a new and better
> >>>government system is built, due to failures of the previous.
> >>>
> >>>
> >Until,
> >
> >
> >>>of course, with size and time, it too becomes increasingly
> >>>political. Some moreso and some less so. Size and time are
> >>>responsible for this, requiring more rigid rulesets. The
> >>>
> >>>
> >rulesets
> >
> >
> >>>create red tape, and thus we have politics. You must resist
the
> >>>windy elements themselves, for times always change. The 'cycle
> >>>
> >>>
> >of
> >
> >
> >>>governments'.
> >>>
> >>>"Have you studied scriptures of other religions and
> >>>
> >>>
> >spiritualities?"
> >
> >
> >>>I have a number of religious books outside of Christianity. In
> >>>fact, one quite extraordinary work is "World Scripture: A
> >>>Comparative Anthology of Sacred Texts" authored by the
> >>>
> >>>
> >International
> >
> >
> >>>Religious Foundation and published by Paragon House. This 900
> >>>
> >>>
> >page
> >
> >
> >>>volume topically categorizes excerpts from all prominent
ancient
> >>>religious texts from religions across the world, with no
> >>>
> >>>
> >commentary
> >
> >
> >>>attached. It is a bible of bibles, so to speak. Comprised of
> >>>
> >>>
> >all
> >
> >
> >>>primary world religions. You may wish to glance at it, if you
> >>>haven't encountered this treasure already.
> >>>
> >>>Now do I actually have time and energy to read entire ancient
> >>>
> >>>
> >texts
> >
> >
> >>>beyond the bible? No, I don't. Does a corporate manager have
> >>>
> >>>
> >time
> >
> >
> >>>to become a doctor and a lawyer and a psychiatrist and an
> >>>
> >>>
> >accountant
> >
> >
> >>>simultaneously? Does such constitute wisdom? What I am
> >>>
> >>>
> >relegated
> >
> >
> >>>to do is specialize in one or two areas (the Bible in this
case),
> >>>and turn to outside teachers for the rest.
> >>>
> >>>I have many precious books in my library, but I haven't
actually
> >>>read them all thoroughly. So I acquire teachers along the
road,
> >>>here and there, to fill me in on what I've missed. These
> >>>
> >>>
> >teachers
> >
> >
> >>>illumine me to small excerpts of their own fields of
specialty.
> >>>
> >>>
> >The
> >
> >
> >>>corporate manager hires the doctor, the lawyer, the
psychiatrist
> >>>
> >>>
> >and
> >
> >
> >>>the accountant, thereby gaining additional, albeit miniscule,
> >>>fragments of knowledge here and there.
> >>>
> >>>"I got the idea from a lifetime of reading the scriptures,
> >>>
> >>>
> >reading
> >
> >
> >>>the works of theologians and of secular Biblical scholars, and
> >>>
> >>>
> >doing
> >
> >
> >>>my own research on the subject."
> >>>
> >>>Hhmm, I come to different conclusions, but we've obviously used
> >>>different sources.
> >>>
> >>>"What parts do you find historical? What parts do you
> >>>find "mythical"? What parts do you find evangelical?"
> >>>
> >>>Here is the most basic breakdown, with minor deviations
contained
> >>>therein:
> >>>
> >>>1. Genesis to Esther (Historical Old Testament)
> >>>2. Job to Malachi (Metaphorical Old Testament)
> >>>3. Matthew to Acts (Historical New Testament)
> >>>4. Romans to Revelation (Metaphorical New Testament)
> >>>
> >>>The Bible is subdivided into these four basic classifications
by
> >>>
> >>>
> >the
> >
> >
> >>>original canonizers, with minor exceptions contained in the
> >>>subsections of each.
> >>>
> >>>I would even assert that the book arrangements could be
reordered
> >>>
> >>>
> >as
> >
> >
> >>>follows:
> >>>
> >>>Book One: Historical (Genesis to Esther; Matthew to Acts)
> >>>
> >>>
> >containing
> >
> >
> >>>a chronology of historical events. Often used for historical
> >>>teaching formats. Good for visual learners with emphasis on
> >>>application versus interpretation.
> >>>
> >>>Book Two: Metaphorical (Job to Malachi; Romans to Revelation)
> >>>containing a series of prophecies, poems, teachings and
> >>>
> >>>
> >metaphors.
> >
> >
> >>>Often used for topical teaching formats. Good for auditory
> >>>
> >>>
> >learners
> >
> >
> >>>with emphasis on interpretation versus application.
> >>>
> >>>If we utterly eliminated the differentiation between the Old
and
> >>>
> >>>
> >New
> >
> >
> >>>Testaments, we would instead have this format of a historical
> >>>
> >>>
> >volume
> >
> >
> >>>(Genesis to Esther and Matthew to Acts) and a metaphorical
volume
> >>>(Job to Malachi and Romans to Revelation). The books were
> >>>
> >>>
> >concisely
> >
> >
> >>>arranged in this fashion by the canonizers of scripture. The
> >>>historical books are arranged according to strict sequential
> >>>timelines, whereas the metaphorical books are arranged morese
by
> >>>size and prominency of author.
> >>>
> >>>"By historical difficulties, I mean that they most probably
never
> >>>occurred."
> >>>
> >>>Have you actually found counter-evidence to the biblical
records,
> >>>
> >>>
> >or
> >
> >
> >>>have the biblical records simply not been affirmatively
validated
> >>>
> >>>
> >to
> >
> >
> >>>you?
> >>>
> >>>""Spiritual clairvoyance" is direct spiritual perception that
> >>>bypasses the mind and visionary images. It come through a
center
> >>>
> >>>
> >of
> >
> >
> >>>perception that does not involve the mind."
> >>>
> >>>Hence spiritual clairvoyace is superior to the mere visions and
> >>>dreams. The dreamer is asleep and masked, operating via
> >>>subconsciously-derived symbols. But the spiritual clairvoyant
is
> >>>fully aware and awake, with all dream imageries having fully
> >>>dissipated. Dreams are merely a veil which serve to
temporarily
> >>>protect the ego consciousness from it's own disintegration
> >>>
> >>>
> >incurred
> >
> >
> >>>by spiritual enlightenment.
> >>>
> >>>Numbers 12
> >>>6 He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you,
> >>>
> >>>
> >I,
> >
> >
> >>>the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall
> >>>
> >>>
> >speak
> >
> >
> >>>with him in a dream.
> >>>7 "Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My
> >>>household;
> >>>8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark
> >>>sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you
> >>>
> >>>
> >not
> >
> >
> >>>afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?"
> >>>(NAS95)
> >>>
> >>>Here we see a differentiation between slumbering dreamers and
> >>>spiritually conscious revelators.
> >>>
> >>>"Interesting idea. The traditions I follow warn about the
snares
> >>>
> >>>
> >of
> >
> >
> >>>psychism. But I also know the dangers from experience. I used
> >>>
> >>>
> >to
> >
> >
> >>>work in an open setting psychiatric hospital where I had the
> >>>
> >>>
> >chance
> >
> >
> >>>to observe and interact with lots of very psychic people. Some
> >>>
> >>>
> >were
> >
> >
> >>>telepathic, some had visions, some had conversations with God
> >>>
> >>>
> >etc.
> >
> >
> >>>Since I also have some natural abilities, I could see a lot of
> >>>things that were going on that the psychiatrists had no idea
> >>>
> >>>
> >about."
> >
> >
> >>>I suggest that many people (perhaps 1 out of 10 in our US
> >>>
> >>>
> >population
> >
> >
> >>>as a very wild guess) have their psychic centers opened up
either
> >>>prematurely or too quickly, either through drug usage or
> >>>
> >>>
> >traumatic
> >
> >
> >>>life events, thereby rendering them mentally ill. The
> >>>
> >>>
> >subconscious
> >
> >
> >>>psyche has many dark things contained within, which often go
> >>>unattended and uncleansed. The most severe instances of the
> >>>subconscious psyche opening up too quickly result in mass
murder
> >>>cases and severe mental derangements. However, the wise sages
of
> >>>antiquity take the slow road.
> >>>
> >>>"Is this story, for you, historical, allegorical, metaphorical
> >>>or...?"
> >>>
> >>>All of the above.
> >>>
> >>>"What do you mean by "materialistic pseudo-spirituality"
> >>>
> >>>
> >and "lower
> >
> >
> >>>psychic centers of our unconscious"?"
> >>>
> >>>1. Materialistic pseudo-spirituality: a psuedo-spiritually
which
> >>>centers moreso around what the material five senses percieve,
> >>>
> >>>
> >while
> >
> >
> >>>operating in ignorance of the supernatural realms of spirits
and
> >>>ghosts. Namely, the realm of classical psychology, which is
> >>>
> >>>
> >often
> >
> >
> >>>basely mistaken for spirituality.
> >>>
> >>>2. Lower psychic centers of our subconscious: the approximated
> >>>
> >>>
> >90%
> >
> >
> >>>of our brain which does not operate with conscious thought,
> >>>
> >>>
> >emotion,
> >
> >
> >>>volition and conscience. We sleep eight hours per night and
> >>>
> >>>
> >awake
> >
> >
> >>>to a sixteen hour day. But when we wake up in the morning,
only
> >>>
> >>>
> >10%
> >
> >
> >>>of our brain actually is conscious, and we remain in a 90%
> >>>
> >>>
> >slumber.
> >
> >
> >>>We walk about as mere sleepwalkers day to day throughout our
> >>>
> >>>
> >daily
> >
> >
> >>>routines. Full brain consciousness enables the full gamut of
> >>>psychic abilities.
> >>>
> >>>Blessings
> >>>
> >>>Vince
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
[Back to Top]
Theosophy World:
Dedicated to the Theosophical Philosophy and its Practical Application
