Dallas- Fundamentalist misrepresentations of the Bible
Apr 04, 2006 08:51 PM
by Vincent
You wrote:
> Thanks. I also try to be impersonal in all things -- it's the
only way to
> build a brotherhood of understanding and tolerance I think.
That makes sense. I'm sometimes curious as to when to keep things
impersonal (let's say when frictions arise with others), and when to
be more personal. I think there's a place for both somewhere, but
I'm not always sure when or where. Often I'll communicate some
small fragment of universal truth on an impersonal level, so as not
to put someone on the spot, but they sometimes get offended by it
anyway, taking it personally, when it was not intended as such.
> If THEOSOPHY is correct, as a complete record of what is actually
happening
> in the Universe (the Karma of cosmic and individual evolution) and
with our
> own progress (as a deathless Monad progressing under this scheme)
we have a
> lot of ideas (personal ones) to modify and make more generous and
> compassionate, I think.
Do you believe that Theosophy is a complete record of what is
actually happening in the universe? Is it not only a small
fragment? Or is it larger?
> I try to think of all others as my kin. No frictions or
prejudices.
I believe that we are all spiritually united, whether we may all
realize it or not.
Blessings
Vince
--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck"
<dalval14@...> wrote:
>
> 3/31/2006 7:12 AM
>
> Dear V:
>
> Thanks. I also try to be impersonal in all things -- it's the
only way to
> build a brotherhood of understanding and tolerance I think.
>
>
> If THEOSOPHY is correct, as a complete record of what is actually
happening
> in the Universe (the Karma of cosmic and individual evolution) and
with our
> own progress (as a deathless Monad progressing under this scheme)
we have a
> lot of ideas (personal ones) to modify and make more generous and
> compassionate, I think.
>
> I try to think of all others as my kin. No frictions or
prejudices.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Dallas
>
> ==================================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-
talk@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Vincent
> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 4:23 PM
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Theos-World Dallas- Fundamentalist misrepresentations of
the Bible
>
> Dallas-
>
> You provide alot of good thoughts here. Certainly some things to
> think about. I can only say that personally for me, I attempt to
> hold people accountable in their lives (whether leadership or non-
> leadership without favoritism) if they directly obstruct my path,
or
> their actions directly affect me. On rare occasions, I will step
> outside of these bounds, but only in vastly extenuating
> circumstance, wherein bodily injury may become a threat to a naive
> party such as a child. Otherwise, I do not chase people down to
> discipline them. However, if they approach me directly, they may
be
> in for a ride.
>
> My personal loyalties are not to an organization or even to a
> person. I wholly support 'contructive' behaviors, and I detest
> violent and destructive behaviors. Also words of compassion and
> encouragement are superior to words of cruelty, in the context of
> the communication of universal truth. It matters not at all to me
> whether a person be a 'sinner' or a 'saint', a leader or a
> follower. Nor do I defer to either groups or individuals. I
simply
> observe the actions and the words, and go from there.
>
> Blessings
>
> Vince
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck"
> <dalval14@> wrote:
> >
> > 3/28/2006 5:26 AM
> >
> >
> >
> > Friends:
> >
> > may I ask?
> >
> >
> >
> > Seems to me we have continuing problems on this: --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > As far as I can see, the failure of moral leadership does not
> exonerate the
> > "followers."
> >
> >
> >
> > Each individual weaves his or her own Karma. This is the
universal
> law.
> >
> >
> >
> > [If we are (all of us) immortal Monads in evolution, then should
> we not live
> > as such?
> >
> > in past lives, we have probably handled such things, and will,
no
> doubt meet
> > them again in future ones, with the same Monads involved ? What
is
> the ideal
> > position to adopt to learn / teach an important lesson? Is
delay
> useful ?]
> >
> >
> >
> > "Passing the blame" appears to be in conflict with loyalty and
> discipline.
> > [ Is this not destructive of every kind of government, and the
> true and
> > honest frame-work of inter-related living and cooperative
> support ? Is this
> > a personal failure on OUR part ? ]
> >
> >
> >
> > I think the problem really is: ARE WE LOYAL TO IDEALS ? TO
> VIRTUES?
> >
> >
> >
> > In practical business life, I have always found that the public
> exposure of
> > a "wrong" (after due notice to the obstructionist) brings
redress
> based on
> > the unflinching logic of the moral and virtuous situation
> involved. If we
> > are silent and inactive, then we advertise the obstructionist,
> that we are
> > actively participating in perpetuating the wrong being done, or
a
> failure in
> > this performance of honest work, and the application of impartial
> > discipline.
> >
> >
> >
> > If an individual who takes high (or low) responsible office,
fails
> in
> > rigidly applying morals and virtues, is it our duty to challenge
> and draw
> > attention to the lapse for the greater good of all concerned?
ARE
> WE
> > RESPONSIBLE TO A PERSON, OR TO AN "OFFICE ?"
> >
> >
> >
> > I would say in such cases, THEOSOPHY looking at such a debate
> between
> > Kama-Manas and BUDDHI-Manas, indicates the superior position
> assumable by
> > impartiality and universality. But I could be wrong in this ?
> How would
> > tact and tolerance dictate in handling this kind of thing ?
> >
> >
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> >
> >
> > Dallas
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-
> talk@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf Of Jerry Hejka-Ekins
> > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:51 PM
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Jerry- Fundamentalist
misrepresentations
> of the
> > Bible
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Vince,
> >
> >
> >
> > >And aside from these failures which you attribute to the
> >
> > >Theosophical Society, in what ways do you think they have still
> been
> >
> > >subsequently successful today?
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > Actually I attribute the failures of the Theosophical Society to
> the
> >
> > leadership. The Theosophical Society and its members were the
> victims.
> >
> > IMO, its greatest success today has been their efforts to
publish
> and
> >
> > keep in print the collected writings of Blavatsky.
> >
> >
> >
> > >What things still appeal to you about the Theosophical Society
> today?
> >
> > >
> >
> > They have an outstanding library at the National Headquarters.
> They
> >
> > publish some important classics. I like many of its members.
> >
> >
> >
> > >I believe that not-for-profit corporations are just as money-
> >
> > >centered as for-profit corporations. They both require money
to
> >
> > >operate, and are permeated with organizational politics at
their
> >
> > >highest ranks. They just obtain their money in different ways.
> >
> > >
> >
> > Yes, non profits organizations, like any other effort requires
> money to
> >
> > operate. And, I suspect that certain non profit organizations,
> like
> >
> > United Way, is primarily oriented to collecting and distributing
> money.
> >
> > With its highly paid officers including its CEO which collects a
> >
> > multi-million dollar salary, I'm sure that there is a lot of
> politics.
> >
> > On the other hand, such places as the United Way have move far
> away from
> >
> > the original concept of non-profits, and are not necessarily
> >
> > representative. I am president-founder of a non-profit
educational
> >
> > organization. The Board meetings typically last for 3 to 4
> hours. The
> >
> > treasurer's report takes 5 to 10 minutes. The rest of the time
we
> talk
> >
> > about planning programs, classes, our journal etc. Rather than
> talking
> >
> > about how to get more money, we talk about and plan services.
No
> one on
> >
> > the Board, or connected in any way with the organization
receives a
> >
> > salary. In fact, Board members are required to donate a
> predetermined
> >
> > amount of their own money to the organization. However,
> volunteers are
> >
> > reimbursed for out of pocket expenses--but not for their time.
> What I
> >
> > am saying is that is is quite possible for non profit
> organizations to
> >
> > be primarily focused on service--not getting money. They do not
> have to
> >
> > be "money centered". We have proved that.
> >
> >
> >
> > >I believe that religious, philosophical and educational
> >
> > >organizations are first and foremost out to make money.
> >
> > >
> >
> > Not ours.
> >
> >
> >
> > >Their services are strictly delivered at a price.
> >
> > >
> >
> > Ours are on a donation bases. Some people pay and some don't.
> >
> >
> >
> > >They may meet spiritual
> >
> > >and intellectual needs, but only for a monetary fee. Money is
> >
> > >central and donations are key.
> >
> > >
> >
> > Not in our case. Service is key.
> >
> >
> >
> > >I suggest that there is such a wealth in the Bible that we
> currently
> >
> > >retain, that even if we lost another 50% of it today, we'd
still
> >
> > >retain more spiritual treasure within it than we could
> qualitatively
> >
> > >ingest in a lifetime.
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Have you studied scriptures of other religions and
spiritualities?
> >
> >
> >
> > >I'm not sure where you get this idea. I suggest that the
gospels
> >
> > >were very much intended as historical texts, even if
> >
> > >evangelistically focused. Luke attempts to focus on each
detail
> for
> >
> > >accuracy, for example. Now one may say that the historical
> methods
> >
> > >of recording and/or verifying information 2000 years ago was
not
> as
> >
> > >precise as it is today, but the gospels are historically-
intended
> >
> > >documents nonetheless, even while remaining evangelistic.
> >
> > >
> >
> > I got the idea from a lifetime of reading the scriptures,
reading
> the
> >
> > works of theologians and of secular Biblical scholars, and
doing
> my own
> >
> > research on the subject.
> >
> >
> >
> > >I suggest that the historicity of the gospels and the presence
of
> >
> > >Greek cultural overtones are not mutually exclusive. The two
can
> >
> > >exist together.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > What parts do you find historical? What parts do you
> find "mythical"?
> >
> > What parts do you find evangelical?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >These historical difficulties do not elimate the fact that the
> >
> > >gospels are originally intended as historical documents.
Rather,
> >
> > >you're just not satisfied with their degree of historical
> accuracy
> >
> > >by today's standards. Those are two very different scenarios.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > By historical difficulties, I mean that they most probably never
> occurred.
> >
> >
> >
> > >Yes, some of these practices were used by ancient Indians. I'm
> not
> >
> > >certain how you're using the term 'spiritual clairvoyance'
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > "Spiritual clairvoyance" is direct spiritual perception that
> bypasses
> >
> > the mind and visionary images. It come through a center of
> perception
> >
> > that does not involve the mind.
> >
> >
> >
> > >, but I
> >
> > >nonetheless suggest that higher spirituality is not attained
> without
> >
> > >first opening up the lower psychic realms for purposes of
> >
> > >cleansing. In this sense, one must pass through the hells (the
> >
> > >darkness of the psychic subconscious) before entering the
heavens
> >
> > >(gaining spiritual enlightenment).
> >
> > >
> >
> > Interesting idea. The traditions I follow warn about the snares
of
> >
> > psychism. But I also know the dangers from experience. I used
to
> work
> >
> > in an open setting psychiatric hospital where I had the chance
to
> >
> > observe and interact with lots of very psychic people. Some were
> >
> > telepathic, some had visions, some had conversations with God
etc.
> >
> > Since I also have some natural abilities, I could see a lot of
> things
> >
> > that were going on that the psychiatrists had no idea about.
> >
> >
> >
> > >This is very similar to the concept that Jesus himself
descended
> >
> > >into the hells and subsequently ascended into the heavens. Or
> when
> >
> > >he was tempted by the devil in the wilderness prior to his
> earthly
> >
> > >ministry.
> >
> > >
> >
> > Is this story, for you, historical, allegorical, metaphorical
> or...?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >If the lower psychic centers are not opened so that they can be
> >
> > >cleansed, we will merely adopt a materialistic pseudo-
> spirituality
> >
> > >as a result, which is even more dangerous than opening up the
> lower
> >
> > >psychic centers of our subconscious.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > What do you mean by "materialistic pseudo-spirituality"
and "lower
> >
> > psychic centers of our unconscious"?
> >
> >
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Vincent wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > >Jerry-
> >
> > >
> >
> > >You wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > >"I think the Theosophical Society began to fail in 1885, and
the
> >
> > >first signs of it beginning to depart from the ideal of it's
> >
> > >founders began in the fall of 1890."
> >
> > >
> >
> > >And aside from these failures which you attribute to the
> >
> > >Theosophical Society, in what ways do you think they have still
> been
> >
> > >subsequently successful today?
> >
> > >
> >
> > >"My wife and I recently attended a weekend seminar at Krotona.
> We
> >
> > >had a good time. Got to see old friends and walked around the
> >
> > >grounds remembering the many people who once live there are are
> now
> >
> > >gone. I am a life member of the TS. I still work with the TS
> >
> > >whenever they ask my assistance. For instance, I was helping
the
> >
> > >former librarian at Olcott on a project to complete sets of
rare
> >
> > >journals to be microfilmed at the American Theological Library
> >
> > >Association. Anything I can to to help the movement, I still
> gladly
> >
> > >do."
> >
> > >
> >
> > >What things still appeal to you about the Theosophical Society
> today?
> >
> > >
> >
> > >"You must understand that I am an idealist. Self interested
> >
> > >politics are expected in for profit corporations. After all,
> their
> >
> > >sole purpose for their existence is to make money in any way
they
> >
> > >can. The interests of the CEO's is understandably to make sure
> that
> >
> > >they get a nice piece of that pie for themselves."
> >
> > >
> >
> > >I believe that not-for-profit corporations are just as money-
> >
> > >centered as for-profit corporations. They both require money
to
> >
> > >operate, and are permeated with organizational politics at
their
> >
> > >highest ranks. They just obtain their money in different ways.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >"Religious, philosophical and educational organizations have
very
> >
> > >different agendas. Their purpose is to tend to the spiritual
and
> >
> > >intellectual needs of the people. There is no place for self
> >
> > >interest in these organizations, and because it happens anyway
> does
> >
> > >not make it OK with me."
> >
> > >
> >
> > >I believe that religious, philosophical and educational
> >
> > >organizations are first and foremost out to make money. Their
> >
> > >services are strictly delivered at a price. They may meet
> spiritual
> >
> > >and intellectual needs, but only for a monetary fee. Money is
> >
> > >central and donations are key.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >"I'm sure that you will learn quite a lot there. You have a
> valuable
> >
> > >resource near your door. You are very lucky."
> >
> > >
> >
> > >Thank you. Yes, I feel lucky to have the National headquarters
> of
> >
> > >the Theosophical Society just 20 minutes away from me.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >"We have what we have and the Biblical scholars are doing the
> best
> >
> > >they can with it. They would just like to have back the 150 or
> so
> >
> > >texts they know about that were destroyed by the church
> authorities,
> >
> > >and the unknown more that must have also existed."
> >
> > >
> >
> > >I suggest that there is such a wealth in the Bible that we
> currently
> >
> > >retain, that even if we lost another 50% of it today, we'd
still
> >
> > >retain more spiritual treasure within it than we could
> qualitatively
> >
> > >ingest in a lifetime.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >"How can I answer this question? They are all historical texts
> in
> >
> > >the sense that they are old. So in this meaning, they are all
> >
> > >historically valid. But as I mentioned earlier, none of these
> >
> > >texts were written as historical accounts of an event."
> >
> > >
> >
> > >I'm not sure where you get this idea. I suggest that the
gospels
> >
> > >were very much intended as historical texts, even if
> >
> > >evangelistically focused. Luke attempts to focus on each
detail
> for
> >
> > >accuracy, for example. Now one may say that the historical
> methods
> >
> > >of recording and/or verifying information 2000 years ago was
not
> as
> >
> > >precise as it is today, but the gospels are historically-
intended
> >
> > >documents nonetheless, even while remaining evangelistic.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >"The Gospels are written around a series of actions with
powerful
> >
> > >cultural connotations which touched upon Greek spirituality and
> >
> > >aroused spiritual responses: the virgin birth; turning water to
> >
> > >wine; healing the Bind man; chasing the demons into the pigs
> etc.
> >
> > >Understanding how the Greeks understood these images requires a
> >
> > >study in Greek religion. That is why when we started our class
> in
> >
> > >the Origins of Christianity, be began with a study of Greek,
> Roman
> >
> > >and Egyptian religion, and preceded these by a three year study
> of
> >
> > >Judaism."
> >
> > >
> >
> > >I suggest that the historicity of the gospels and the presence
of
> >
> > >Greek cultural overtones are not mutually exclusive. The two
can
> >
> > >exist together.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >"As for the presumably historical elements in the Gospel
> scriptures:
> >
> > >Birth at Bethlehem; flight to Egypt; the 12 apostles; the Jesu
> Logia;
> >
> > >the over turning of the money changer's tables; the Sanhedrin
> trial;
> >
> > >the interview with Pilate; the passion, all are riddled with
> >
> > >historical difficulties."
> >
> > >
> >
> > >These historical difficulties do not elimate the fact that the
> >
> > >gospels are originally intended as historical documents.
Rather,
> >
> > >you're just not satisfied with their degree of historical
> accuracy
> >
> > >by today's standards. Those are two very different scenarios.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >"I wasn't thinking of drug use. But yes, I agree, it is very
> >
> > >risky. I am saying that certain practices which do not involve
> >
> > >drugs, which force open the "doors of perception" as Huxley
> called
> >
> > >it, can also have bad results."
> >
> > >
> >
> > >That all depends on how much force you use. I've personally
> >
> > >experienced that delicate force can have rather good results as
> well.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >"You description reminds me of practices carried on by some
Indian
> >
> > >sadhus, and also some Native American practices. They open the
> lower
> >
> > >psychic realms in induce visions etc. but are useless for the
> >
> > >development of the real spiritual clairvoyance."
> >
> > >
> >
> > >Yes, some of these practices were used by ancient Indians. I'm
> not
> >
> > >certain how you're using the term 'spiritual clairvoyance', but
I
> >
> > >nonetheless suggest that higher spirituality is not attained
> without
> >
> > >first opening up the lower psychic realms for purposes of
> >
> > >cleansing. In this sense, one must pass through the hells (the
> >
> > >darkness of the psychic subconscious) before entering the
heavens
> >
> > >(gaining spiritual enlightenment).
> >
> > >
> >
> > >This is very similar to the concept that Jesus himself
descended
> >
> > >into the hells and subsequently ascended into the heavens. Or
> when
> >
> > >he was tempted by the devil in the wilderness prior to his
> earthly
> >
> > >ministry.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >If the lower psychic centers are not opened so that they can be
> >
> > >cleansed, we will merely adopt a materialistic pseudo-
> spirituality
> >
> > >as a result, which is even more dangerous than opening up the
> lower
> >
> > >psychic centers of our subconscious.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >Blessings
> >
> > >
> >
> > >Vince
> >
> > >
> >
> > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@>
> >
> > >wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>Dear Vince,
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>>Do you somehow feel that the Theosophical Society of Wheaton,
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >where
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>>I have recently been attending, has departed from the ideals
of
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >it's
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>>founders?
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>I think the Theosophical Society began to fail in 1885, and
the
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >first
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>signs of it beginning to depart from the ideal of it's
founders
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >began in
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>the fall of 1890.
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>>Do you still personally attend there, or have you
> >
> > >>>altogether ceased?
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>My wife and I recently attended a weekend seminar at Krotona.
> We
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >had a
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>good time. Got to see old friends and walked around the
grounds
> >
> > >>remembering the many people who once live there are are now
> gone.
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >I am
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>a life member of the TS. I still work with the TS whenever
they
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >ask my
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>assistance. For instance, I was helping the former librarian
at
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >Olcott
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>on a project to complete sets of rare journals to be
microfilmed
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >at the
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>American Theological Library Association. Anything I can to
to
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >help the
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>movement, I still gladly do.
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>>So you seem to be saying that they've been a bit political to
> say
> >
> > >>>the least. But the same could be said of any incorporated
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >business
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>>or religious organization. Do you feel that they actually
did
> >
> > >>>something bad or wrong?
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>You must understand that I am an idealist. Self interested
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >politics are
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>expected in for profit corporations. After all, their sole
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >purpose for
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>their existence is to make money in any way they can. The
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >interests of
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>the CEO's is understandably to make sure that they get a nice
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >piece of
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>that pie for themselves. Religious, philosophical and
> educational
> >
> > >>organizations have very different agendas. Their purpose is to
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >tend to
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>the spiritual and intellectual needs of the people. There is
no
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >place
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>for self interest in these organizations, and because it
happens
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >anyway
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>does not make it OK with me.
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>>Honestly, I've just been attending some weekly teachings and
> >
> > >>>courses, paying each applicable donation per visit which is
> >
> > >>>necessary to run the meetings. Perhaps I will learn some
> things
> >
> > >>>there, and I believe that I have already as well.
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>I'm sure that you will learn quite a lot there. You have a
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >valuable
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>resource near your door. You are very lucky.
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>>I would suggest that, even if the Bible is so grossly edited
as
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >you
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>>assert, we nonetheless have enough of it historically intact
to
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >make
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>>useful reading of it. Granted it may be fragmented, but we
> still
> >
> > >>>have a reasonable amount to constuctively work with.
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>We have what we have and the Biblical scholars are doing the
> best
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >they
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>can with it. They would just like to have back the 150 or so
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >texts they
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>know about that were destroyed by the church authorities, and
> the
> >
> > >>unknown more that must have also existed.
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>>What portions of the Bible, if any, do you believe remain
> >
> > >>>historically valid? Is it all bad, or just parts thereof?
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>How can I answer this question? They are all historical texts
> in
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >the
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>sense that they are old. So in this meaning, they are all
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >historically
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>valid. But as I mentioned earlier, none of these texts were
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >written as
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>historical accounts of an event. The Gospels are written
around
> a
> >
> > >>series of actions with powerful cultural connotations which
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >touched upon
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>Greek spirituality and aroused spiritual responses: the virgin
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >birth;
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>turning water to wine; healing the Bind man; chasing the
demons
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >into the
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>pigs etc. Understanding how the Greeks understood these
images
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >requires
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>a study in Greek religion. That is why when we started our
> class
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >in the
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>Origins of Christianity, be began with a study of Greek, Roman
> and
> >
> > >>Egyptian religion, and preceded these by a three year study of
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >Judaism.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>As for the presumably historical elements in the Gospel
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >scriptures:
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>Birth at Bethlehem; flight to Egypt; the 12 apostles; the Jesu
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >Logia;
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>the over turning of the money changer's tables; the Sanhedrin
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >trial; the
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>interview with Pilate; the passion, all are riddled with
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >historical
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>difficulties.
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>>These dangers moreso exist in the context of those who use
> >
> > >>>illegitimate consciousness-expanding drugs to induce their
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >trances.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>I wasn't thinking of drug use. But yes, I agree, it is very
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >risky. I
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>am saying that certain practices which do not involve drugs,
> which
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >force
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>open the "doors of perception" as Huxley called it, can also
> have
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >bad
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>results.
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>>Whereas, my own trance-conditioning is completely the
opposite,
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >and
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>>revolves around natural physiological conditioning, such as
> >
> > >>>recycling the waking/sleeping rhythms and fasting/eating
> rhythms,
> >
> > >>>more after the manner of an athlete. Hence, my trances are a
> bit
> >
> > >>>more difficult to induce, but are easily shut down. Bodily
> self-
> >
> > >>>mastery, much like a bodybuilder, versus crass chemical
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >augmentation.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>You description reminds me of practices carried on by some
> Indian
> >
> > >>sadhus, and also some Native American practices. They open
the
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >lower
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>psychic realms in induce visions etc. but are useless for the
> >
> > >>development of the real spiritual clairvoyance.
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>Best
> >
> > >>Jerry
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/
> >
> >
> >
> > theos-talk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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