Theos-Talk Archives (April 2006 Message tt00088)

You wrote:

> You need to understand that I live in California, 2,000 miles away 
from 
> Olcott.  So, I am in no position to attend their classes etc.  I, 
of 
> course, know many of the presenters personally and/or through 
their 
> publications, and I have varying opinions, depending upon who you 
have 
> in mind.  If I lived in the area, I would probably attend some 
> presentations and not others.  Also, it might help you to know 
that I 
> have been a TS member for  forty-three years, studied, led 
classes, 
> presented lectures, organized conferences, attended conventions 
etc. for 
> more years than many of the presenters you have heard at Olcott. 
What I 
> am saying is; much of what you are hearing and seeing at Olcott 
for the 
> first time is old hat for me. 

Good to hear.  But do you still consider yourself to be a 
Theosophist if you are attending a Unitarian Church?  You seem a bit 
at odds with Theosophy to me.  Or maybe I'm mistaken.
 
> Your use of "they" makes this a pretty general question, asking 
for a 
> blanket evaluation. In fairness I cannot do that.  Instead, I will 
> answer this way: Each of those presenters have their own 
understanding 
> and perspective of the Secret Doctrine and of ethics.  Olcott has 
> certain favorites who they ask to speak on the Secret Doctrine, so 
I 
> have a general idea of who you have heard.  Of those who I know, 
or have 
> read their writings, some are very good.  Others, in my opinion, 
frankly 
> don't know what they are talking about. As for "ethics" that is a 
> subject close to my heart, as well as my wife's.  If you want a 
> recommendation, the most knowledgeable person I know of in terms 
of 
> Theosophy, Blavatsky, Secret Doctrine etc. who teaches and lives 
> Theosophical ethics, is a woman named Vonda Urban. I don't know if 
she 
> has ever been invited to speak at Olcott, but she does (or did) 
speak at 
> various Lodges in the Chicago area. You might check her out and 
let me 
> know what you think. If you cannot locate her, then email me 
privately 
> and I will give you the particulars on how to contact her, and a 
letter 
> of introduction.  She lives in the central Chicago area and and 
has been 
> teaching Theosophy continuously for 30 years that I know of.  My 
wife 
> studied with her for a couple of years before moving to 
California. 
> Since my wife's doctoral dissertation was about teaching ethics in 
> public institutions, teaches the subject at our California State 
> University, and has been a student of Theosophy for over 25 years, 
I 
> think she is a good judge of who really understands and practices 
> Theosophical ethics.  She gives Vonda an A+.  As for Vonda's 
> understanding of Theosophical teachings, I also give her an A+.

I will inquire about Vonda Urban at the Wheaton facility.  I'm sure 
that they've heard of her.  Thank you so much.
 
> Good background.  Perhaps you have some advice for us?

I'm not sure what your organizational needs are.  What specific 
needs do you have, if any?
 
> We promote perennialism.  Perennialism is the notion that all the 
wold's 
> major religions and spiritual traditions have a common resource of 
> ideas--call it a primordial tradition, or a wisdom tradition, or 
an 
> ancient wisdom.  We explore the world's literature and traditions, 
hold 
> classes, seminars, field trips, meditation retreats, and publish a 
> quarterly journal.  We have a web site, but it is in desperate 
need of 
> up-dating.  But you can get some basic information about us at: 
> www.alexandriawest.org

Interesting website.  I've bookmarked it.  I tend to use the 
term 'universal truth'.  I'm not sure if that's perhaps consistent 
with 'perennialism'.
 
> Yes. I have seen this and have from the beginning been cognizant 
of the 
> possibility of this fate for Alexandria West after I am dead.  
This may 
> be a natural down hill course for organizations, does not have to 
be the 
> case.  I have seen non profits in Los Angeles which are over 50 
years 
> old which did not fall into this trap.  It is not fated.  Much 
depends 
> upon how the successive Board members hold to the original values 
of the 
> organization.  I do agree that such a fall is related to size. As 
an 
> organization get wealthier, opportunities open for those greedy 
for a 
> piece of the pie or for personal power.  But, once again, this too 
does 
> not have to be.  I could go into particulars about one or two 
> organizations, but then this would become a very long post. 

We have different philosophies it seems, but that's okay.  More 
power to ya.
 
> Yes, we are aware of these issues.  My wife teaches Public 
Administration. 

Sounds tuff.
 
> You sound like you have taken one of my wife's courses :-)

Lolol.  It is more experiential for me.
 
> And there begins the public corruption.

Exactly.  If not much sooner.  In fact, my personal belief is that 
the public corruption begins immediately upon the desire and/or 
acquisition of positional authority.
 
> Our approach is to engage each text individually from a cultural 
and 
> historical context. Comparisons then come up in discussions.

So you perform your discussions on a text by text basis then?
 
> perhaps in your retirement...

If it will do me any good then, lolol.  I'm not currently relaxed.

> Interesting exegesis.  Then, as an historical work, you would say 
that 
> there was literally a first couple name Adam and Eve who lived in 
a 
> garden and conversed with a serpent....?

I would say that the authors literally believed what they wrote, 
even if I do not always agree with them.  The early Jews (and even 
Jesus himself) believed in a literal Adam and Eve.  Whether I do or 
not is another matter entirely.
 
> How do you define and what would you accept as "counter-evidence"?

I am defining counter-evidence as any factual proof that would stand 
up in a court case.

Blessings

Vince

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@...> 
wrote:
>
> Dear Vincent,
> 
> >Okay, that's very nice.  Then how do you feel about the various 
> >class sessions with their respective speakers? 
> >
> You need to understand that I live in California, 2,000 miles away 
from 
> Olcott.  So, I am in no position to attend their classes etc.  I, 
of 
> course, know many of the presenters personally and/or through 
their 
> publications, and I have varying opinions, depending upon who you 
have 
> in mind.  If I lived in the area, I would probably attend some 
> presentations and not others.  Also, it might help you to know 
that I 
> have been a TS member for  forty-three years, studied, led 
classes, 
> presented lectures, organized conferences, attended conventions 
etc. for 
> more years than many of the presenters you have heard at Olcott. 
What I 
> am saying is; much of what you are hearing and seeing at Olcott 
for the 
> first time is old hat for me. 
> 
> >Do they stay true to the original spirit of the organization?  
For example, I am 
> >attending a number of the directors' classes (Ethics of the 
Secret 
> >Doctrine; The Law of Cycles, etc.) at the Wheaton Headquarters, 
> >coupled with sporadic attendance when a new guest speaker is 
invited 
> >each week.
> >
> Your use of "they" makes this a pretty general question, asking 
for a 
> blanket evaluation. In fairness I cannot do that.  Instead, I will 
> answer this way: Each of those presenters have their own 
understanding 
> and perspective of the Secret Doctrine and of ethics.  Olcott has 
> certain favorites who they ask to speak on the Secret Doctrine, so 
I 
> have a general idea of who you have heard.  Of those who I know, 
or have 
> read their writings, some are very good.  Others, in my opinion, 
frankly 
> don't know what they are talking about. As for "ethics" that is a 
> subject close to my heart, as well as my wife's.  If you want a 
> recommendation, the most knowledgeable person I know of in terms 
of 
> Theosophy, Blavatsky, Secret Doctrine etc. who teaches and lives 
> Theosophical ethics, is a woman named Vonda Urban. I don't know if 
she 
> has ever been invited to speak at Olcott, but she does (or did) 
speak at 
> various Lodges in the Chicago area. You might check her out and 
let me 
> know what you think. If you cannot locate her, then email me 
privately 
> and I will give you the particulars on how to contact her, and a 
letter 
> of introduction.  She lives in the central Chicago area and and 
has been 
> teaching Theosophy continuously for 30 years that I know of.  My 
wife 
> studied with her for a couple of years before moving to 
California. 
> Since my wife's doctoral dissertation was about teaching ethics in 
> public institutions, teaches the subject at our California State 
> University, and has been a student of Theosophy for over 25 years, 
I 
> think she is a good judge of who really understands and practices 
> Theosophical ethics.  She gives Vonda an A+.  As for Vonda's 
> understanding of Theosophical teachings, I also give her an A+.
> 
> >Wow, that sounds pretty industrious.  I'm glad that you have such 
a 
> >positive focus.  I was a corporate instructor myself for many 
years, 
> >although that was all strictly business, working for millionaires 
> >that I had never personally met.  I taught a couple hundred 
> >employees between two different companies, both on-site and in-
> >classroom, hiring half of the ones that I taught.  I taught 
package 
> >handlers at UPS, and inventory specialists at RGIS.  Two 
different 
> >companies.  
> >
> Good background.  Perhaps you have some advice for us?
> 
> >What things do you teach for your non-profit educational 
> >organization that you run?
> >  
> >
> We promote perennialism.  Perennialism is the notion that all the 
wold's 
> major religions and spiritual traditions have a common resource of 
> ideas--call it a primordial tradition, or a wisdom tradition, or 
an 
> ancient wisdom.  We explore the world's literature and traditions, 
hold 
> classes, seminars, field trips, meditation retreats, and publish a 
> quarterly journal.  We have a web site, but it is in desperate 
need of 
> up-dating.  But you can get some basic information about us at: 
> www.alexandriawest.org
> 
> >That's very nice.  And I do believe that this is how most non-
> >profits start out in the beginning.  And some, like yours, can 
even 
> >extend this positive focus for several decades.  However, I 
suggest 
> >that size and time inevitably come into play with growing 
> >organizations.  As organizations grow larger over many extended 
> >decades, they become increasingly more rigid in their policies.  
I 
> >call it the 'cycle of governments' for lack of a better term.  
This 
> >is mostly size and time related.
> >
> Yes. I have seen this and have from the beginning been cognizant 
of the 
> possibility of this fate for Alexandria West after I am dead.  
This may 
> be a natural down hill course for organizations, does not have to 
be the 
> case.  I have seen non profits in Los Angeles which are over 50 
years 
> old which did not fall into this trap.  It is not fated.  Much 
depends 
> upon how the successive Board members hold to the original values 
of the 
> organization.  I do agree that such a fall is related to size. As 
an 
> organization get wealthier, opportunities open for those greedy 
for a 
> piece of the pie or for personal power.  But, once again, this too 
does 
> not have to be.  I could go into particulars about one or two 
> organizations, but then this would become a very long post. 
> 
> >For example, let's say that your organization grows in the next 
few 
> >years, to the point where you begin to require paid staffing.  
> >Hypothetically, you may even boost up to 100-1000 volunteers, 
whom 
> >you won't be able to directly manage without hiring 5-10 paid 
> >staff.  As you do this, you'll invariably need to extend a rigid 
> >ruleset concerning safety procedures, legal procedures and the 
> >like.  The reason that you'll begin enforcing a few strict rules 
> >here and there (even though remaining flexible on many, if not 
most) 
> >is because some volunteer(s) will eventually do something 
flagrant 
> >that counters the best interests of the organizational agenda. 
> >  
> >
> Yes, we are aware of these issues.  My wife teaches Public 
Administration. 
> 
> >What I'm really trying to communicate is the concept that every 
> >national government, corporate business, educational system or 
> >religious church begins as somewhat of a rebel faction (whether 
> >bloody or polite) seeking independence from a cruel 'overlord' 
> >organization.  All organizations fall into this category, albeit 
> >intensity and degree vary.
> >
> You sound like you have taken one of my wife's courses :-)
> 
> >Every independent entrepreneur is a dissatisfied rebel at heart 
> >(some bloody and some polite), who detests the way that things 
were 
> >done by the previous 'overlord'.  Therefore a new and better 
> >government system is built, due to failures of the previous.  
Until, 
> >of course, with size and time, it too becomes increasingly 
> >political.  Some moreso and some less so.  Size and time are 
> >responsible for this, requiring more rigid rulesets.  The 
rulesets 
> >create red tape, and thus we have politics.  You must resist the 
> >windy elements themselves, for times always change.  The 'cycle 
of 
> >governments'.
> >
> And there begins the public corruption.
> 
> >I have a number of religious books outside of Christianity.  In 
> >fact, one quite extraordinary work is "World Scripture: A 
> >Comparative Anthology of Sacred Texts" authored by the 
International 
> >Religious Foundation and published by Paragon House.  This 900 
page 
> >volume topically categorizes excerpts from all prominent ancient 
> >religious texts from religions across the world, with no 
commentary 
> >attached.  It is a bible of bibles, so to speak.  Comprised of 
all 
> >primary world religions.  You may wish to glance at it, if you 
> >haven't encountered this treasure already.
> >
> Our approach is to engage each text individually from a cultural 
and 
> historical context. Comparisons then come up in discussions.
> 
> >Now do I actually have time and energy to read entire ancient 
texts 
> >beyond the bible?  No, I don't.  Does a corporate manager have 
time 
> >to become a doctor and a lawyer and a psychiatrist and an 
accountant 
> >simultaneously?  Does such constitute wisdom?  What I am 
relegated 
> >to do is specialize in one or two areas (the Bible in this case), 
> >and turn to outside teachers for the rest.
> >
> perhaps in your retirement...
> 
> >I have many precious books in my library, but I haven't actually 
> >read them all thoroughly.  So I acquire teachers along the road, 
> >here and there, to fill me in on what I've missed.  These 
teachers 
> >illumine me to small excerpts of their own fields of specialty.  
The 
> >corporate manager hires the doctor, the lawyer, the psychiatrist 
and 
> >the accountant, thereby gaining additional, albeit miniscule, 
> >fragments of knowledge here and there.
> >
> As we all must do.
> 
> >Hhmm, I come to different conclusions, but we've obviously used 
> >different sources.
> >
> No doubt.
> 
> >Here is the most basic breakdown, with minor deviations contained 
> >therein:
> >
> >1. Genesis to Esther (Historical Old Testament)
> >2. Job to Malachi (Metaphorical Old Testament)
> >3. Matthew to Acts (Historical New Testament)
> >4. Romans to Revelation (Metaphorical New Testament)
> >
> Interesting exegesis.  Then, as an historical work, you would say 
that 
> there was literally a first couple name Adam and Eve who lived in 
a 
> garden and conversed with a serpent....?
> 
> >Have you actually found counter-evidence to the biblical records, 
or 
> >have the biblical records simply not been affirmatively validated 
to 
> >you?
> >
> How do you define and what would you accept as "counter-evidence"?
> 
> >Hence spiritual clairvoyace is superior to the mere visions and 
> >dreams.  The dreamer is asleep and masked, operating via 
> >subconsciously-derived symbols.  But the spiritual clairvoyant is 
> >fully aware and awake, with all dream imageries having fully 
> >dissipated.  Dreams are merely a veil which serve to temporarily 
> >protect the ego consciousness from it's own disintegration 
incurred 
> >by spiritual enlightenment.
> >
> >Numbers 12 
> > 6 He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, 
I, 
> >the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall 
speak 
> >with him in a dream. 
> > 7 "Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My 
> >household; 
> > 8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark 
> >sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you 
not 
> >afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?" 
> > (NAS95)
> >
> >Here we see a differentiation between slumbering dreamers and 
> >spiritually conscious revelators.
> >
> 
> Yes. Well said, and a good quote.
> 
> >The subconscious 
> >psyche has many dark things contained within, which often go 
> >unattended and uncleansed.  The most severe instances of the 
> >subconscious psyche opening up too quickly result in mass murder 
> >cases and severe mental derangements.  However, the wise sages of 
> >antiquity take the slow road.
> >
> Yes.
> 
> Best,
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vincent wrote:
> 
> >Jerry-
> >
> >You wrote:
> >
> >"Actually I attribute the failures of the Theosophical Society to 
> >the leadership. The Theosophical Society and its members were the 
> >victims.  IMO, its greatest success today has been their efforts 
to 
> >publish and keep in print the collected writings of Blavatsky.  
They 
> >have an outstanding library at the National Headquarters.  They 
> >publish some important classics.  I like many of its members."
> >
> >Okay, that's very nice.  Then how do you feel about the various 
> >class sessions with their respective speakers?  Do they stay true 
to 
> >the original spirit of the organization?  For example, I am 
> >attending a number of the directors' classes (Ethics of the 
Secret 
> >Doctrine; The Law of Cycles, etc.) at the Wheaton Headquarters, 
> >coupled with sporadic attendance when a new guest speaker is 
invited 
> >each week.
> >
> >"Yes, non profits organizations, like any other effort requires 
> >money to operate.  And, I suspect that certain non profit 
> >organizations, like United Way, is primarily oriented to 
collecting 
> >and distributing money.  With its highly paid officers including 
its 
> >CEO which collects a multi-million dollar salary, I'm sure that 
> >there is a lot of politics."
> >
> >Indeed.
> >
> >"On the other hand, such places as the United Way have move far 
away 
> >from the original concept of non-profits, and are not necessarily 
> >representative.  I am president-founder of a non-profit 
educational 
> >organization.  The Board meetings typically last for 3 to 4 
hours.  
> >The treasurer's report takes 5 to 10 minutes.  The rest of the 
time 
> >we talk about planning programs, classes, our journal etc.  
Rather 
> >than talking about how to get more money, we talk about and plan 
> >services."
> >
> >Wow, that sounds pretty industrious.  I'm glad that you have such 
a 
> >positive focus.  I was a corporate instructor myself for many 
years, 
> >although that was all strictly business, working for millionaires 
> >that I had never personally met.  I taught a couple hundred 
> >employees between two different companies, both on-site and in-
> >classroom, hiring half of the ones that I taught.  I taught 
package 
> >handlers at UPS, and inventory specialists at RGIS.  Two 
different 
> >companies.  What things do you teach for your non-profit 
educational 
> >organization that you run?
> >
> >"No one on the Board, or connected in any way with the 
organization 
> >receives a salary.  In fact, Board members are required to donate 
a 
> >predetermined amount of their own money to the organization.  
> >However, volunteers are reimbursed for out of pocket expenses--
but 
> >not for their time.  What I am saying is that is is quite 
possible 
> >for non profit organizations to be primarily focused on service--
not 
> >getting money.  They do not have to be "money centered". We have 
> >proved that.  Ours are on a donation bases.  Some people pay and 
> >some don't"
> >
> >That's very nice.  And I do believe that this is how most non-
> >profits start out in the beginning.  And some, like yours, can 
even 
> >extend this positive focus for several decades.  However, I 
suggest 
> >that size and time inevitably come into play with growing 
> >organizations.  As organizations grow larger over many extended 
> >decades, they become increasingly more rigid in their policies.  
I 
> >call it the 'cycle of governments' for lack of a better term.  
This 
> >is mostly size and time related.
> >
> >For example, let's say that your organization grows in the next 
few 
> >years, to the point where you begin to require paid staffing.  
> >Hypothetically, you may even boost up to 100-1000 volunteers, 
whom 
> >you won't be able to directly manage without hiring 5-10 paid 
> >staff.  As you do this, you'll invariably need to extend a rigid 
> >ruleset concerning safety procedures, legal procedures and the 
> >like.  The reason that you'll begin enforcing a few strict rules 
> >here and there (even though remaining flexible on many, if not 
most) 
> >is because some volunteer(s) will eventually do something 
flagrant 
> >that counters the best interests of the organizational agenda. 
> >
> >What I'm really trying to communicate is the concept that every 
> >national government, corporate business, educational system or 
> >religious church begins as somewhat of a rebel faction (whether 
> >bloody or polite) seeking independence from a cruel 'overlord' 
> >organization.  All organizations fall into this category, albeit 
> >intensity and degree vary.
> >
> >Every independent entrepreneur is a dissatisfied rebel at heart 
> >(some bloody and some polite), who detests the way that things 
were 
> >done by the previous 'overlord'.  Therefore a new and better 
> >government system is built, due to failures of the previous.  
Until, 
> >of course, with size and time, it too becomes increasingly 
> >political.  Some moreso and some less so.  Size and time are 
> >responsible for this, requiring more rigid rulesets.  The 
rulesets 
> >create red tape, and thus we have politics.  You must resist the 
> >windy elements themselves, for times always change.  The 'cycle 
of 
> >governments'.
> >
> >"Have you studied scriptures of other religions and 
spiritualities?"
> >
> >I have a number of religious books outside of Christianity.  In 
> >fact, one quite extraordinary work is "World Scripture: A 
> >Comparative Anthology of Sacred Texts" authored by the 
International 
> >Religious Foundation and published by Paragon House.  This 900 
page 
> >volume topically categorizes excerpts from all prominent ancient 
> >religious texts from religions across the world, with no 
commentary 
> >attached.  It is a bible of bibles, so to speak.  Comprised of 
all 
> >primary world religions.  You may wish to glance at it, if you 
> >haven't encountered this treasure already.
> >
> >Now do I actually have time and energy to read entire ancient 
texts 
> >beyond the bible?  No, I don't.  Does a corporate manager have 
time 
> >to become a doctor and a lawyer and a psychiatrist and an 
accountant 
> >simultaneously?  Does such constitute wisdom?  What I am 
relegated 
> >to do is specialize in one or two areas (the Bible in this case), 
> >and turn to outside teachers for the rest.
> >
> >I have many precious books in my library, but I haven't actually 
> >read them all thoroughly.  So I acquire teachers along the road, 
> >here and there, to fill me in on what I've missed.  These 
teachers 
> >illumine me to small excerpts of their own fields of specialty.  
The 
> >corporate manager hires the doctor, the lawyer, the psychiatrist 
and 
> >the accountant, thereby gaining additional, albeit miniscule, 
> >fragments of knowledge here and there.
> >
> >"I got the idea from a lifetime of reading the scriptures, 
reading 
> >the works of theologians and of secular Biblical scholars, and 
doing 
> >my own research on the subject."
> >
> >Hhmm, I come to different conclusions, but we've obviously used 
> >different sources.
> >
> >"What parts do you find historical?  What parts do you 
> >find "mythical"?  What parts do you find evangelical?"
> >
> >Here is the most basic breakdown, with minor deviations contained 
> >therein:
> >
> >1. Genesis to Esther (Historical Old Testament)
> >2. Job to Malachi (Metaphorical Old Testament)
> >3. Matthew to Acts (Historical New Testament)
> >4. Romans to Revelation (Metaphorical New Testament)
> >
> >The Bible is subdivided into these four basic classifications by 
the 
> >original canonizers, with minor exceptions contained in the 
> >subsections of each.
> >
> >I would even assert that the book arrangements could be reordered 
as 
> >follows:
> >
> >Book One: Historical (Genesis to Esther; Matthew to Acts) 
containing 
> >a chronology of historical events.  Often used for historical 
> >teaching formats.  Good for visual learners with emphasis on 
> >application versus interpretation.
> >
> >Book Two: Metaphorical (Job to Malachi; Romans to Revelation) 
> >containing a series of prophecies, poems, teachings and 
metaphors.  
> >Often used for topical teaching formats.  Good for auditory 
learners 
> >with emphasis on interpretation versus application.
> >
> >If we utterly eliminated the differentiation between the Old and 
New 
> >Testaments, we would instead have this format of a historical 
volume 
> >(Genesis to Esther and Matthew to Acts) and a metaphorical volume 
> >(Job to Malachi and Romans to Revelation).  The books were 
concisely 
> >arranged in this fashion by the canonizers of scripture.  The 
> >historical books are arranged according to strict sequential 
> >timelines, whereas the metaphorical books are arranged morese by 
> >size and prominency of author.
> >
> >"By historical difficulties, I mean that they most probably never 
> >occurred."
> >
> >Have you actually found counter-evidence to the biblical records, 
or 
> >have the biblical records simply not been affirmatively validated 
to 
> >you?
> >
> >""Spiritual clairvoyance"  is direct spiritual perception that 
> >bypasses the mind and visionary images.  It come through a center 
of 
> >perception that does not involve the mind."
> >
> >Hence spiritual clairvoyace is superior to the mere visions and 
> >dreams.  The dreamer is asleep and masked, operating via 
> >subconsciously-derived symbols.  But the spiritual clairvoyant is 
> >fully aware and awake, with all dream imageries having fully 
> >dissipated.  Dreams are merely a veil which serve to temporarily 
> >protect the ego consciousness from it's own disintegration 
incurred 
> >by spiritual enlightenment.
> >
> >Numbers 12 
> > 6 He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, 
I, 
> >the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall 
speak 
> >with him in a dream. 
> > 7 "Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My 
> >household; 
> > 8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark 
> >sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you 
not 
> >afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?" 
> > (NAS95)
> >
> >Here we see a differentiation between slumbering dreamers and 
> >spiritually conscious revelators.
> >
> >"Interesting idea. The traditions I follow warn about the snares 
of 
> >psychism.  But I also know the dangers from experience.  I used 
to 
> >work in an open setting psychiatric hospital where I  had the 
chance 
> >to observe and interact with lots of very psychic people.  Some 
were 
> >telepathic, some had visions, some had conversations with God 
etc.  
> >Since I also have some natural abilities, I could see a lot of 
> >things that were going on that the psychiatrists had no idea 
about."
> >
> >I suggest that many people (perhaps 1 out of 10 in our US 
population 
> >as a very wild guess) have their psychic centers opened up either 
> >prematurely or too quickly, either through drug usage or 
traumatic 
> >life events, thereby rendering them mentally ill.  The 
subconscious 
> >psyche has many dark things contained within, which often go 
> >unattended and uncleansed.  The most severe instances of the 
> >subconscious psyche opening up too quickly result in mass murder 
> >cases and severe mental derangements.  However, the wise sages of 
> >antiquity take the slow road.
> >
> >"Is this story, for you, historical, allegorical, metaphorical 
> >or...?"
> >
> >All of the above.
> > 
> >"What do you mean by "materialistic pseudo-spirituality" 
and "lower 
> >psychic centers of our unconscious"?"
> >
> >1. Materialistic pseudo-spirituality: a psuedo-spiritually which 
> >centers moreso around what the material five senses percieve, 
while 
> >operating in ignorance of the supernatural realms of spirits and 
> >ghosts.  Namely, the realm of classical psychology, which is 
often 
> >basely mistaken for spirituality.
> >
> >2. Lower psychic centers of our subconscious: the approximated 
90% 
> >of our brain which does not operate with conscious thought, 
emotion, 
> >volition and conscience.  We sleep eight hours per night and 
awake 
> >to a sixteen hour day.  But when we wake up in the morning, only 
10% 
> >of our brain actually is conscious, and we remain in a 90% 
slumber.  
> >We walk about as mere sleepwalkers day to day throughout our 
daily 
> >routines.  Full brain consciousness enables the full gamut of 
> >psychic abilities.
> >
> >Blessings
> >
> >Vince
> >