Dallas- Fundamentalist misrepresentations of the Bible
Mar 30, 2006 04:23 PM
by Vincent
You provide alot of good thoughts here. Certainly some things to
think about. I can only say that personally for me, I attempt to
hold people accountable in their lives (whether leadership or non-
leadership without favoritism) if they directly obstruct my path, or
their actions directly affect me. On rare occasions, I will step
outside of these bounds, but only in vastly extenuating
circumstance, wherein bodily injury may become a threat to a naive
party such as a child. Otherwise, I do not chase people down to
discipline them. However, if they approach me directly, they may be
in for a ride.
My personal loyalties are not to an organization or even to a
person. I wholly support 'contructive' behaviors, and I detest
violent and destructive behaviors. Also words of compassion and
encouragement are superior to words of cruelty, in the context of
the communication of universal truth. It matters not at all to me
whether a person be a 'sinner' or a 'saint', a leader or a
follower. Nor do I defer to either groups or individuals. I simply
observe the actions and the words, and go from there.
Blessings
Vince
--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck"
<dalval14@...> wrote:
>
> 3/28/2006 5:26 AM
>
>
>
> Friends:
>
> may I ask?
>
>
>
> Seems to me we have continuing problems on this: --
>
>
>
>
>
> As far as I can see, the failure of moral leadership does not
exonerate the
> "followers."
>
>
>
> Each individual weaves his or her own Karma. This is the universal
law.
>
>
>
> [If we are (all of us) immortal Monads in evolution, then should
we not live
> as such?
>
> in past lives, we have probably handled such things, and will, no
doubt meet
> them again in future ones, with the same Monads involved ? What is
the ideal
> position to adopt to learn / teach an important lesson? Is delay
useful ?]
>
>
>
> "Passing the blame" appears to be in conflict with loyalty and
discipline.
> [ Is this not destructive of every kind of government, and the
true and
> honest frame-work of inter-related living and cooperative
support ? Is this
> a personal failure on OUR part ? ]
>
>
>
> I think the problem really is: ARE WE LOYAL TO IDEALS ? TO
VIRTUES?
>
>
>
> In practical business life, I have always found that the public
exposure of
> a "wrong" (after due notice to the obstructionist) brings redress
based on
> the unflinching logic of the moral and virtuous situation
involved. If we
> are silent and inactive, then we advertise the obstructionist,
that we are
> actively participating in perpetuating the wrong being done, or a
failure in
> this performance of honest work, and the application of impartial
> discipline.
>
>
>
> If an individual who takes high (or low) responsible office, fails
in
> rigidly applying morals and virtues, is it our duty to challenge
and draw
> attention to the lapse for the greater good of all concerned? ARE
WE
> RESPONSIBLE TO A PERSON, OR TO AN "OFFICE ?"
>
>
>
> I would say in such cases, THEOSOPHY looking at such a debate
between
> Kama-Manas and BUDDHI-Manas, indicates the superior position
assumable by
> impartiality and universality. But I could be wrong in this ?
How would
> tact and tolerance dictate in handling this kind of thing ?
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> Dallas
>
>
>
> ============================
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-
talk@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Jerry Hejka-Ekins
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:51 PM
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Jerry- Fundamentalist misrepresentations
of the
> Bible
>
>
>
> Dear Vince,
>
>
>
> >And aside from these failures which you attribute to the
>
> >Theosophical Society, in what ways do you think they have still
been
>
> >subsequently successful today?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> Actually I attribute the failures of the Theosophical Society to
the
>
> leadership. The Theosophical Society and its members were the
victims.
>
> IMO, its greatest success today has been their efforts to publish
and
>
> keep in print the collected writings of Blavatsky.
>
>
>
> >What things still appeal to you about the Theosophical Society
today?
>
> >
>
> They have an outstanding library at the National Headquarters.
They
>
> publish some important classics. I like many of its members.
>
>
>
> >I believe that not-for-profit corporations are just as money-
>
> >centered as for-profit corporations. They both require money to
>
> >operate, and are permeated with organizational politics at their
>
> >highest ranks. They just obtain their money in different ways.
>
> >
>
> Yes, non profits organizations, like any other effort requires
money to
>
> operate. And, I suspect that certain non profit organizations,
like
>
> United Way, is primarily oriented to collecting and distributing
money.
>
> With its highly paid officers including its CEO which collects a
>
> multi-million dollar salary, I'm sure that there is a lot of
politics.
>
> On the other hand, such places as the United Way have move far
away from
>
> the original concept of non-profits, and are not necessarily
>
> representative. I am president-founder of a non-profit educational
>
> organization. The Board meetings typically last for 3 to 4
hours. The
>
> treasurer's report takes 5 to 10 minutes. The rest of the time we
talk
>
> about planning programs, classes, our journal etc. Rather than
talking
>
> about how to get more money, we talk about and plan services. No
one on
>
> the Board, or connected in any way with the organization receives a
>
> salary. In fact, Board members are required to donate a
predetermined
>
> amount of their own money to the organization. However,
volunteers are
>
> reimbursed for out of pocket expenses--but not for their time.
What I
>
> am saying is that is is quite possible for non profit
organizations to
>
> be primarily focused on service--not getting money. They do not
have to
>
> be "money centered". We have proved that.
>
>
>
> >I believe that religious, philosophical and educational
>
> >organizations are first and foremost out to make money.
>
> >
>
> Not ours.
>
>
>
> >Their services are strictly delivered at a price.
>
> >
>
> Ours are on a donation bases. Some people pay and some don't.
>
>
>
> >They may meet spiritual
>
> >and intellectual needs, but only for a monetary fee. Money is
>
> >central and donations are key.
>
> >
>
> Not in our case. Service is key.
>
>
>
> >I suggest that there is such a wealth in the Bible that we
currently
>
> >retain, that even if we lost another 50% of it today, we'd still
>
> >retain more spiritual treasure within it than we could
qualitatively
>
> >ingest in a lifetime.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Have you studied scriptures of other religions and spiritualities?
>
>
>
> >I'm not sure where you get this idea. I suggest that the gospels
>
> >were very much intended as historical texts, even if
>
> >evangelistically focused. Luke attempts to focus on each detail
for
>
> >accuracy, for example. Now one may say that the historical
methods
>
> >of recording and/or verifying information 2000 years ago was not
as
>
> >precise as it is today, but the gospels are historically-intended
>
> >documents nonetheless, even while remaining evangelistic.
>
> >
>
> I got the idea from a lifetime of reading the scriptures, reading
the
>
> works of theologians and of secular Biblical scholars, and doing
my own
>
> research on the subject.
>
>
>
> >I suggest that the historicity of the gospels and the presence of
>
> >Greek cultural overtones are not mutually exclusive. The two can
>
> >exist together.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> What parts do you find historical? What parts do you
find "mythical"?
>
> What parts do you find evangelical?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >These historical difficulties do not elimate the fact that the
>
> >gospels are originally intended as historical documents. Rather,
>
> >you're just not satisfied with their degree of historical
accuracy
>
> >by today's standards. Those are two very different scenarios.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> By historical difficulties, I mean that they most probably never
occurred.
>
>
>
> >Yes, some of these practices were used by ancient Indians. I'm
not
>
> >certain how you're using the term 'spiritual clairvoyance'
>
> >
>
> >
>
> "Spiritual clairvoyance" is direct spiritual perception that
bypasses
>
> the mind and visionary images. It come through a center of
perception
>
> that does not involve the mind.
>
>
>
> >, but I
>
> >nonetheless suggest that higher spirituality is not attained
without
>
> >first opening up the lower psychic realms for purposes of
>
> >cleansing. In this sense, one must pass through the hells (the
>
> >darkness of the psychic subconscious) before entering the heavens
>
> >(gaining spiritual enlightenment).
>
> >
>
> Interesting idea. The traditions I follow warn about the snares of
>
> psychism. But I also know the dangers from experience. I used to
work
>
> in an open setting psychiatric hospital where I had the chance to
>
> observe and interact with lots of very psychic people. Some were
>
> telepathic, some had visions, some had conversations with God etc.
>
> Since I also have some natural abilities, I could see a lot of
things
>
> that were going on that the psychiatrists had no idea about.
>
>
>
> >This is very similar to the concept that Jesus himself descended
>
> >into the hells and subsequently ascended into the heavens. Or
when
>
> >he was tempted by the devil in the wilderness prior to his
earthly
>
> >ministry.
>
> >
>
> Is this story, for you, historical, allegorical, metaphorical
or...?
>
>
>
>
>
> >If the lower psychic centers are not opened so that they can be
>
> >cleansed, we will merely adopt a materialistic pseudo-
spirituality
>
> >as a result, which is even more dangerous than opening up the
lower
>
> >psychic centers of our subconscious.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> What do you mean by "materialistic pseudo-spirituality" and "lower
>
> psychic centers of our unconscious"?
>
>
>
> Best
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Vincent wrote:
>
>
>
> >Jerry-
>
> >
>
> >You wrote:
>
> >
>
> >"I think the Theosophical Society began to fail in 1885, and the
>
> >first signs of it beginning to depart from the ideal of it's
>
> >founders began in the fall of 1890."
>
> >
>
> >And aside from these failures which you attribute to the
>
> >Theosophical Society, in what ways do you think they have still
been
>
> >subsequently successful today?
>
> >
>
> >"My wife and I recently attended a weekend seminar at Krotona.
We
>
> >had a good time. Got to see old friends and walked around the
>
> >grounds remembering the many people who once live there are are
now
>
> >gone. I am a life member of the TS. I still work with the TS
>
> >whenever they ask my assistance. For instance, I was helping the
>
> >former librarian at Olcott on a project to complete sets of rare
>
> >journals to be microfilmed at the American Theological Library
>
> >Association. Anything I can to to help the movement, I still
gladly
>
> >do."
>
> >
>
> >What things still appeal to you about the Theosophical Society
today?
>
> >
>
> >"You must understand that I am an idealist. Self interested
>
> >politics are expected in for profit corporations. After all,
their
>
> >sole purpose for their existence is to make money in any way they
>
> >can. The interests of the CEO's is understandably to make sure
that
>
> >they get a nice piece of that pie for themselves."
>
> >
>
> >I believe that not-for-profit corporations are just as money-
>
> >centered as for-profit corporations. They both require money to
>
> >operate, and are permeated with organizational politics at their
>
> >highest ranks. They just obtain their money in different ways.
>
> >
>
> >"Religious, philosophical and educational organizations have very
>
> >different agendas. Their purpose is to tend to the spiritual and
>
> >intellectual needs of the people. There is no place for self
>
> >interest in these organizations, and because it happens anyway
does
>
> >not make it OK with me."
>
> >
>
> >I believe that religious, philosophical and educational
>
> >organizations are first and foremost out to make money. Their
>
> >services are strictly delivered at a price. They may meet
spiritual
>
> >and intellectual needs, but only for a monetary fee. Money is
>
> >central and donations are key.
>
> >
>
> >"I'm sure that you will learn quite a lot there. You have a
valuable
>
> >resource near your door. You are very lucky."
>
> >
>
> >Thank you. Yes, I feel lucky to have the National headquarters
of
>
> >the Theosophical Society just 20 minutes away from me.
>
> >
>
> >"We have what we have and the Biblical scholars are doing the
best
>
> >they can with it. They would just like to have back the 150 or
so
>
> >texts they know about that were destroyed by the church
authorities,
>
> >and the unknown more that must have also existed."
>
> >
>
> >I suggest that there is such a wealth in the Bible that we
currently
>
> >retain, that even if we lost another 50% of it today, we'd still
>
> >retain more spiritual treasure within it than we could
qualitatively
>
> >ingest in a lifetime.
>
> >
>
> >"How can I answer this question? They are all historical texts
in
>
> >the sense that they are old. So in this meaning, they are all
>
> >historically valid. But as I mentioned earlier, none of these
>
> >texts were written as historical accounts of an event."
>
> >
>
> >I'm not sure where you get this idea. I suggest that the gospels
>
> >were very much intended as historical texts, even if
>
> >evangelistically focused. Luke attempts to focus on each detail
for
>
> >accuracy, for example. Now one may say that the historical
methods
>
> >of recording and/or verifying information 2000 years ago was not
as
>
> >precise as it is today, but the gospels are historically-intended
>
> >documents nonetheless, even while remaining evangelistic.
>
> >
>
> >"The Gospels are written around a series of actions with powerful
>
> >cultural connotations which touched upon Greek spirituality and
>
> >aroused spiritual responses: the virgin birth; turning water to
>
> >wine; healing the Bind man; chasing the demons into the pigs
etc.
>
> >Understanding how the Greeks understood these images requires a
>
> >study in Greek religion. That is why when we started our class
in
>
> >the Origins of Christianity, be began with a study of Greek,
Roman
>
> >and Egyptian religion, and preceded these by a three year study
of
>
> >Judaism."
>
> >
>
> >I suggest that the historicity of the gospels and the presence of
>
> >Greek cultural overtones are not mutually exclusive. The two can
>
> >exist together.
>
> >
>
> >"As for the presumably historical elements in the Gospel
scriptures:
>
> >Birth at Bethlehem; flight to Egypt; the 12 apostles; the Jesu
Logia;
>
> >the over turning of the money changer's tables; the Sanhedrin
trial;
>
> >the interview with Pilate; the passion, all are riddled with
>
> >historical difficulties."
>
> >
>
> >These historical difficulties do not elimate the fact that the
>
> >gospels are originally intended as historical documents. Rather,
>
> >you're just not satisfied with their degree of historical
accuracy
>
> >by today's standards. Those are two very different scenarios.
>
> >
>
> >"I wasn't thinking of drug use. But yes, I agree, it is very
>
> >risky. I am saying that certain practices which do not involve
>
> >drugs, which force open the "doors of perception" as Huxley
called
>
> >it, can also have bad results."
>
> >
>
> >That all depends on how much force you use. I've personally
>
> >experienced that delicate force can have rather good results as
well.
>
> >
>
> >"You description reminds me of practices carried on by some Indian
>
> >sadhus, and also some Native American practices. They open the
lower
>
> >psychic realms in induce visions etc. but are useless for the
>
> >development of the real spiritual clairvoyance."
>
> >
>
> >Yes, some of these practices were used by ancient Indians. I'm
not
>
> >certain how you're using the term 'spiritual clairvoyance', but I
>
> >nonetheless suggest that higher spirituality is not attained
without
>
> >first opening up the lower psychic realms for purposes of
>
> >cleansing. In this sense, one must pass through the hells (the
>
> >darkness of the psychic subconscious) before entering the heavens
>
> >(gaining spiritual enlightenment).
>
> >
>
> >This is very similar to the concept that Jesus himself descended
>
> >into the hells and subsequently ascended into the heavens. Or
when
>
> >he was tempted by the devil in the wilderness prior to his
earthly
>
> >ministry.
>
> >
>
> >If the lower psychic centers are not opened so that they can be
>
> >cleansed, we will merely adopt a materialistic pseudo-
spirituality
>
> >as a result, which is even more dangerous than opening up the
lower
>
> >psychic centers of our subconscious.
>
> >
>
> >Blessings
>
> >
>
> >Vince
>
> >
>
> >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@>
>
> >wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>Dear Vince,
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>>Do you somehow feel that the Theosophical Society of Wheaton,
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >where
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>>I have recently been attending, has departed from the ideals of
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >it's
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>>founders?
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>I think the Theosophical Society began to fail in 1885, and the
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >first
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>signs of it beginning to depart from the ideal of it's founders
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >began in
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>the fall of 1890.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>>Do you still personally attend there, or have you
>
> >>>altogether ceased?
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>My wife and I recently attended a weekend seminar at Krotona.
We
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >had a
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>good time. Got to see old friends and walked around the grounds
>
> >>remembering the many people who once live there are are now
gone.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >I am
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>a life member of the TS. I still work with the TS whenever they
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >ask my
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>assistance. For instance, I was helping the former librarian at
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >Olcott
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>on a project to complete sets of rare journals to be microfilmed
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >at the
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>American Theological Library Association. Anything I can to to
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >help the
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>movement, I still gladly do.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>>So you seem to be saying that they've been a bit political to
say
>
> >>>the least. But the same could be said of any incorporated
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >business
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>>or religious organization. Do you feel that they actually did
>
> >>>something bad or wrong?
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>You must understand that I am an idealist. Self interested
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >politics are
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>expected in for profit corporations. After all, their sole
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >purpose for
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>their existence is to make money in any way they can. The
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >interests of
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>the CEO's is understandably to make sure that they get a nice
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >piece of
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>that pie for themselves. Religious, philosophical and
educational
>
> >>organizations have very different agendas. Their purpose is to
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >tend to
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>the spiritual and intellectual needs of the people. There is no
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >place
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>for self interest in these organizations, and because it happens
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >anyway
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>does not make it OK with me.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>>Honestly, I've just been attending some weekly teachings and
>
> >>>courses, paying each applicable donation per visit which is
>
> >>>necessary to run the meetings. Perhaps I will learn some
things
>
> >>>there, and I believe that I have already as well.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>I'm sure that you will learn quite a lot there. You have a
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >valuable
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>resource near your door. You are very lucky.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>>I would suggest that, even if the Bible is so grossly edited as
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >you
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>>assert, we nonetheless have enough of it historically intact to
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >make
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>>useful reading of it. Granted it may be fragmented, but we
still
>
> >>>have a reasonable amount to constuctively work with.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>We have what we have and the Biblical scholars are doing the
best
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >they
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>can with it. They would just like to have back the 150 or so
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >texts they
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>know about that were destroyed by the church authorities, and
the
>
> >>unknown more that must have also existed.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>>What portions of the Bible, if any, do you believe remain
>
> >>>historically valid? Is it all bad, or just parts thereof?
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>How can I answer this question? They are all historical texts
in
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >the
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>sense that they are old. So in this meaning, they are all
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >historically
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>valid. But as I mentioned earlier, none of these texts were
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >written as
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>historical accounts of an event. The Gospels are written around
a
>
> >>series of actions with powerful cultural connotations which
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >touched upon
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>Greek spirituality and aroused spiritual responses: the virgin
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >birth;
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>turning water to wine; healing the Bind man; chasing the demons
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >into the
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>pigs etc. Understanding how the Greeks understood these images
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >requires
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>a study in Greek religion. That is why when we started our
class
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >in the
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>Origins of Christianity, be began with a study of Greek, Roman
and
>
> >>Egyptian religion, and preceded these by a three year study of
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >Judaism.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>As for the presumably historical elements in the Gospel
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >scriptures:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>Birth at Bethlehem; flight to Egypt; the 12 apostles; the Jesu
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >Logia;
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>the over turning of the money changer's tables; the Sanhedrin
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >trial; the
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>interview with Pilate; the passion, all are riddled with
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >historical
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>difficulties.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>>These dangers moreso exist in the context of those who use
>
> >>>illegitimate consciousness-expanding drugs to induce their
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >trances.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>I wasn't thinking of drug use. But yes, I agree, it is very
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >risky. I
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>am saying that certain practices which do not involve drugs,
which
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >force
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>open the "doors of perception" as Huxley called it, can also
have
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >bad
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>results.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>>Whereas, my own trance-conditioning is completely the opposite,
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >and
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>>revolves around natural physiological conditioning, such as
>
> >>>recycling the waking/sleeping rhythms and fasting/eating
rhythms,
>
> >>>more after the manner of an athlete. Hence, my trances are a
bit
>
> >>>more difficult to induce, but are easily shut down. Bodily
self-
>
> >>>mastery, much like a bodybuilder, versus crass chemical
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >augmentation.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>You description reminds me of practices carried on by some
Indian
>
> >>sadhus, and also some Native American practices. They open the
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >lower
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>psychic realms in induce visions etc. but are useless for the
>
> >>development of the real spiritual clairvoyance.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>Best
>
> >>Jerry
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/
>
>
>
> theos-talk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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