Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt01679)

Cass
cent <vblaz2004@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Dallas-

You provide alot of good thoughts here.  Certainly some things to 
think about.  I can only say that personally for me, I attempt to 
hold people accountable in their lives (whether leadership or non-
leadership without favoritism) if they directly obstruct my path, or 
their actions directly affect me.  On rare occasions, I will step 
outside of these bounds, but only in vastly extenuating 
circumstance, wherein bodily injury may become a threat to a naive 
party such as a child.  Otherwise, I do not chase people down to 
discipline them.  However, if they approach me directly, they may be 
in for a ride.

My personal loyalties are not to an organization or even to a 
person.  I wholly support 'contructive' behaviors, and I detest 
violent and destructive behaviors.  Also words of compassion and 
encouragement are superior to words of cruelty, in the context of 
the communication of universal truth.  It matters not at all to me 
whether a person be a 'sinner' or a 'saint', a leader or a 
follower.  Nor do I defer to either groups or individuals.  I simply 
observe the actions and the words, and go from there.

Blessings

Vince

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" 
 wrote:
>
> 3/28/2006 5:26 AM
> 
>  
> 
> Friends:  
> 
>                         may I ask? 
> 
>  
> 
> Seems to me we have continuing problems on this: --
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> As far as I can see, the failure of moral leadership does not 
exonerate the
> "followers."  
> 
>  
> 
> Each individual weaves his or her own Karma. This is the universal 
law.
> 
>  
> 
> [If we are (all of us) immortal Monads in evolution, then should 
we not live
> as such? 
> 
> in past lives, we have probably handled such things, and will, no 
doubt meet
> them again in future ones, with the same Monads involved ? What is 
the ideal
> position to adopt to learn / teach an important lesson?  Is delay 
useful ?]
> 
>  
> 
> "Passing the blame" appears to be in conflict with loyalty and 
discipline.
> [ Is this not destructive of every kind of government, and the 
true and
> honest frame-work of inter-related living and cooperative 
support ?  Is this
> a personal failure on OUR part ? ]
> 
>  
> 
> I think the problem really is:  ARE WE LOYAL TO IDEALS ?  TO 
VIRTUES?  
> 
>  
> 
> In practical business life, I have always found that the public 
exposure of
> a "wrong" (after due notice to the obstructionist) brings redress 
based on
> the unflinching logic of the moral and virtuous situation 
involved.  If we
> are silent and inactive, then we advertise the obstructionist, 
that we are
> actively participating in perpetuating the wrong being done, or a 
failure in
> this performance of honest work, and the application of impartial
> discipline. 
> 
>  
> 
> If an individual who takes high (or low) responsible office, fails 
in
> rigidly applying morals and virtues, is it our duty to challenge 
and draw
> attention to the lapse for the greater good of all concerned?  ARE 
WE
> RESPONSIBLE TO A PERSON, OR TO AN "OFFICE ?"
> 
>  
> 
> I would say in such cases, THEOSOPHY looking at such a debate 
between
> Kama-Manas and BUDDHI-Manas, indicates the superior position 
assumable by
> impartiality and universality.  But I could be wrong in this ?  
How would
> tact and tolerance dictate in handling this kind of thing ? 
> 
>  
> 
> Best wishes, 
> 
>  
> 
> Dallas
> 
>  
> 
> ============================
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-
talk@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Jerry Hejka-Ekins
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:51 PM
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Jerry- Fundamentalist misrepresentations 
of the
> Bible
> 
>  
> 
> Dear Vince,
> 
>  
> 
> >And aside from these failures which you attribute to the 
> 
> >Theosophical Society, in what ways do you think they have still 
been 
> 
> >subsequently successful today?
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> Actually I attribute the failures of the Theosophical Society to 
the
> 
> leadership. The Theosophical Society and its members were the 
victims.
> 
> IMO, its greatest success today has been their efforts to publish 
and
> 
> keep in print the collected writings of Blavatsky.
> 
>  
> 
> >What things still appeal to you about the Theosophical Society 
today?
> 
> >
> 
> They have an outstanding library at the National Headquarters.  
They
> 
> publish some important classics.  I like many of its members.
> 
>  
> 
> >I believe that not-for-profit corporations are just as money-
> 
> >centered as for-profit corporations.  They both require money to 
> 
> >operate, and are permeated with organizational politics at their 
> 
> >highest ranks.  They just obtain their money in different ways.
> 
> >
> 
> Yes, non profits organizations, like any other effort requires 
money to
> 
> operate.  And, I suspect that certain non profit organizations, 
like
> 
> United Way, is primarily oriented to collecting and distributing 
money.
> 
> With its highly paid officers including its CEO which collects a
> 
> multi-million dollar salary, I'm sure that there is a lot of 
politics.
> 
> On the other hand, such places as the United Way have move far 
away from
> 
> the original concept of non-profits, and are not necessarily
> 
> representative.  I am president-founder of a non-profit educational
> 
> organization.  The Board meetings typically last for 3 to 4 
hours.  The
> 
> treasurer's report takes 5 to 10 minutes.  The rest of the time we 
talk
> 
> about planning programs, classes, our journal etc.  Rather than 
talking
> 
> about how to get more money, we talk about and plan services.  No 
one on
> 
> the Board, or connected in any way with the organization receives a
> 
> salary.  In fact, Board members are required to donate a 
predetermined
> 
> amount of their own money to the organization.  However, 
volunteers are
> 
> reimbursed for out of pocket expenses--but not for their time.  
What I
> 
> am saying is that is is quite possible for non profit 
organizations to
> 
> be primarily focused on service--not getting money.  They do not 
have to
> 
> be "money centered". We have proved that.
> 
>  
> 
> >I believe that religious, philosophical and educational 
> 
> >organizations are first and foremost out to make money. 
> 
> >
> 
> Not ours.
> 
>  
> 
> >Their services are strictly delivered at a price.
> 
> >
> 
> Ours are on a donation bases.  Some people pay and some don't.
> 
>  
> 
> >They may meet spiritual 
> 
> >and intellectual needs, but only for a monetary fee.  Money is 
> 
> >central and donations are key.
> 
> >
> 
> Not in our case.  Service is key.
> 
>  
> 
> >I suggest that there is such a wealth in the Bible that we 
currently 
> 
> >retain, that even if we lost another 50% of it today, we'd still 
> 
> >retain more spiritual treasure within it than we could 
qualitatively 
> 
> >ingest in a lifetime.
> 
> >
> 
>  
> 
> Have you studied scriptures of other religions and spiritualities?
> 
>  
> 
> >I'm not sure where you get this idea.  I suggest that the gospels 
> 
> >were very much intended as historical texts, even if 
> 
> >evangelistically focused.  Luke attempts to focus on each detail 
for 
> 
> >accuracy, for example.  Now one may say that the historical 
methods 
> 
> >of recording and/or verifying information 2000 years ago was not 
as 
> 
> >precise as it is today, but the gospels are historically-intended 
> 
> >documents nonetheless, even while remaining evangelistic.
> 
> >
> 
> I got the idea from a lifetime of reading the scriptures, reading 
the
> 
> works of  theologians and of secular Biblical scholars, and doing 
my own
> 
> research on the subject.
> 
>  
> 
> >I suggest that the historicity of the gospels and the presence of 
> 
> >Greek cultural overtones are not mutually exclusive.  The two can 
> 
> >exist together.
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> What parts do you find historical?  What parts do you 
find "mythical"?
> 
> What parts do you find evangelical?
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> >These historical difficulties do not elimate the fact that the 
> 
> >gospels are originally intended as historical documents.  Rather, 
> 
> >you're just not satisfied with their degree of historical 
accuracy 
> 
> >by today's standards.  Those are two very different scenarios.
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> By historical difficulties, I mean that they most probably never 
occurred.
> 
>  
> 
> >Yes, some of these practices were used by ancient Indians.  I'm 
not 
> 
> >certain how you're using the term 'spiritual clairvoyance'
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> "Spiritual clairvoyance"  is direct spiritual perception that 
bypasses
> 
> the mind and visionary images.  It come through a center of 
perception
> 
> that does not involve the mind.
> 
>  
> 
> >, but I 
> 
> >nonetheless suggest that higher spirituality is not attained 
without 
> 
> >first opening up the lower psychic realms for purposes of 
> 
> >cleansing.  In this sense, one must pass through the hells (the 
> 
> >darkness of the psychic subconscious) before entering the heavens 
> 
> >(gaining spiritual enlightenment).
> 
> >
> 
> Interesting idea. The traditions I follow warn about the snares of
> 
> psychism.  But I also know the dangers from experience.  I used to 
work
> 
> in an open setting psychiatric hospital where I  had the chance to
> 
> observe and interact with lots of very psychic people.  Some were
> 
> telepathic, some had visions, some had conversations with God etc.
> 
> Since I also have some natural abilities, I could see a lot of 
things
> 
> that were going on that the psychiatrists had no idea about.
> 
>  
> 
> >This is very similar to the concept that Jesus himself descended 
> 
> >into the hells and subsequently ascended into the heavens.  Or 
when 
> 
> >he was tempted by the devil in the wilderness prior to his 
earthly 
> 
> >ministry.
> 
> >
> 
> Is this story, for you, historical, allegorical, metaphorical 
or...?
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> >If the lower psychic centers are not opened so that they can be 
> 
> >cleansed, we will merely adopt a materialistic pseudo-
spirituality 
> 
> >as a result, which is even more dangerous than opening up the 
lower 
> 
> >psychic centers of our subconscious.
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> What do you mean by "materialistic pseudo-spirituality" and "lower
> 
> psychic centers of our unconscious"?
> 
>  
> 
> Best
> 
> Jerry
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Vincent wrote:
> 
>  
> 
> >Jerry-
> 
> >
> 
> >You wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> >"I think the Theosophical Society began to fail in 1885, and the 
> 
> >first signs of it beginning to depart from the ideal of it's 
> 
> >founders began in the fall of 1890."
> 
> >
> 
> >And aside from these failures which you attribute to the 
> 
> >Theosophical Society, in what ways do you think they have still 
been 
> 
> >subsequently successful today?
> 
> >
> 
> >"My wife and I recently attended a weekend seminar at Krotona.  
We 
> 
> >had a good time.  Got to see old friends and walked around the 
> 
> >grounds remembering the many people who once live there are are 
now 
> 
> >gone.  I am a life member of the TS.  I still work with the TS 
> 
> >whenever they ask my assistance.  For instance, I was helping the 
> 
> >former librarian at Olcott on a project to complete sets of rare 
> 
> >journals to be microfilmed at the American Theological Library 
> 
> >Association.  Anything I can to to help the movement, I still 
gladly 
> 
> >do."
> 
> >
> 
> >What things still appeal to you about the Theosophical Society 
today?
> 
> >
> 
> >"You must understand that I am an idealist.  Self interested 
> 
> >politics are expected in for profit corporations.  After all, 
their 
> 
> >sole purpose for their existence is to make money in any way they 
> 
> >can. The interests of the CEO's is understandably to make sure 
that 
> 
> >they get a nice piece of that pie for themselves."
> 
> >
> 
> >I believe that not-for-profit corporations are just as money-
> 
> >centered as for-profit corporations.  They both require money to 
> 
> >operate, and are permeated with organizational politics at their 
> 
> >highest ranks.  They just obtain their money in different ways.
> 
> >
> 
> >"Religious, philosophical and educational organizations have very 
> 
> >different agendas. Their purpose is to tend to the spiritual and 
> 
> >intellectual needs of the people. There is no place for self 
> 
> >interest in these organizations, and because it happens anyway 
does 
> 
> >not make it OK with me."
> 
> >
> 
> >I believe that religious, philosophical and educational 
> 
> >organizations are first and foremost out to make money.  Their 
> 
> >services are strictly delivered at a price.  They may meet 
spiritual 
> 
> >and intellectual needs, but only for a monetary fee.  Money is 
> 
> >central and donations are key.
> 
> >
> 
> >"I'm sure that you will learn quite a lot there.  You have a 
valuable
> 
> >resource near your door.  You are very lucky."
> 
> >
> 
> >Thank you.  Yes, I feel lucky to have the National headquarters 
of 
> 
> >the Theosophical Society just 20 minutes away from me.
> 
> >
> 
> >"We have what we have and the Biblical scholars are doing the 
best 
> 
> >they can with it.  They would just like to have back the 150 or 
so 
> 
> >texts they know about that were destroyed by the church 
authorities, 
> 
> >and the unknown more that must have also existed."
> 
> >
> 
> >I suggest that there is such a wealth in the Bible that we 
currently 
> 
> >retain, that even if we lost another 50% of it today, we'd still 
> 
> >retain more spiritual treasure within it than we could 
qualitatively 
> 
> >ingest in a lifetime.
> 
> >
> 
> >"How can I answer this question?  They are all historical texts 
in 
> 
> >the sense that they are old.  So in this meaning, they are all 
> 
> >historically valid.   But as I mentioned earlier, none of these 
> 
> >texts were written as historical accounts of an event."
> 
> >
> 
> >I'm not sure where you get this idea.  I suggest that the gospels 
> 
> >were very much intended as historical texts, even if 
> 
> >evangelistically focused.  Luke attempts to focus on each detail 
for 
> 
> >accuracy, for example.  Now one may say that the historical 
methods 
> 
> >of recording and/or verifying information 2000 years ago was not 
as 
> 
> >precise as it is today, but the gospels are historically-intended 
> 
> >documents nonetheless, even while remaining evangelistic.
> 
> >
> 
> >"The Gospels are written around a series of actions with powerful 
> 
> >cultural connotations which touched upon Greek spirituality and 
> 
> >aroused spiritual responses: the virgin birth; turning water to 
> 
> >wine; healing the Bind man; chasing the demons into the pigs 
etc.  
> 
> >Understanding how the Greeks understood these images requires a 
> 
> >study in Greek religion.  That is why when we started our class 
in 
> 
> >the Origins of Christianity, be began with a study of Greek, 
Roman 
> 
> >and Egyptian religion, and preceded these by a three year study 
of 
> 
> >Judaism."
> 
> >
> 
> >I suggest that the historicity of the gospels and the presence of 
> 
> >Greek cultural overtones are not mutually exclusive.  The two can 
> 
> >exist together.
> 
> >
> 
> >"As for the presumably historical elements in the Gospel 
scriptures:
> 
> >Birth at Bethlehem; flight to Egypt; the 12 apostles; the Jesu 
Logia;
> 
> >the over turning of the money changer's tables; the Sanhedrin 
trial; 
> 
> >the interview with Pilate; the passion, all are riddled with 
> 
> >historical difficulties."
> 
> >
> 
> >These historical difficulties do not elimate the fact that the 
> 
> >gospels are originally intended as historical documents.  Rather, 
> 
> >you're just not satisfied with their degree of historical 
accuracy 
> 
> >by today's standards.  Those are two very different scenarios.
> 
> >
> 
> >"I wasn't thinking of drug use.  But yes, I agree, it is very 
> 
> >risky.  I am saying that certain practices which do not involve 
> 
> >drugs, which force open the "doors of perception" as Huxley 
called 
> 
> >it, can also have bad results."
> 
> >
> 
> >That all depends on how much force you use.  I've personally 
> 
> >experienced that delicate force can have rather good results as 
well.
> 
> >
> 
> >"You description reminds me of practices carried on by some Indian
> 
> >sadhus, and also some Native American practices.  They open the 
lower
> 
> >psychic realms in induce visions etc. but are useless for the
> 
> >development of the real spiritual clairvoyance."
> 
> >
> 
> >Yes, some of these practices were used by ancient Indians.  I'm 
not 
> 
> >certain how you're using the term 'spiritual clairvoyance', but I 
> 
> >nonetheless suggest that higher spirituality is not attained 
without 
> 
> >first opening up the lower psychic realms for purposes of 
> 
> >cleansing.  In this sense, one must pass through the hells (the 
> 
> >darkness of the psychic subconscious) before entering the heavens 
> 
> >(gaining spiritual enlightenment).
> 
> >
> 
> >This is very similar to the concept that Jesus himself descended 
> 
> >into the hells and subsequently ascended into the heavens.  Or 
when 
> 
> >he was tempted by the devil in the wilderness prior to his 
earthly 
> 
> >ministry.
> 
> >
> 
> >If the lower psychic centers are not opened so that they can be 
> 
> >cleansed, we will merely adopt a materialistic pseudo-
spirituality 
> 
> >as a result, which is even more dangerous than opening up the 
lower 
> 
> >psychic centers of our subconscious.
> 
> >
> 
> >Blessings
> 
> >
> 
> >Vince
> 
> >
> 
> >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins  
> 
> >wrote:
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>Dear Vince,
> 
> >>
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >>>Do you somehow feel that the Theosophical Society of Wheaton, 
> 
> >>>      
> 
> >>>
> 
> >where 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>>I have recently been attending, has departed from the ideals of 
> 
> >>>      
> 
> >>>
> 
> >it's 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>>founders?  
> 
> >>>
> 
> >>>      
> 
> >>>
> 
> >>I think the Theosophical Society began to fail in 1885, and the 
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >first 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>signs of it beginning to depart from the ideal of it's founders 
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >began in 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>the fall of 1890. 
> 
> >>
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >>>Do you still personally attend there, or have you 
> 
> >>>altogether ceased?
> 
> >>>
> 
> >>>      
> 
> >>>
> 
> >>My wife and I recently attended a weekend seminar at Krotona.  
We 
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >had a 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>good time.  Got to see old friends and walked around the grounds 
> 
> >>remembering the many people who once live there are are now 
gone.  
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >I am 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>a life member of the TS.  I still work with the TS whenever they 
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >ask my 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>assistance.  For instance, I was helping the former librarian at 
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >Olcott 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>on a project to complete sets of rare journals to be microfilmed 
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >at the 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>American Theological Library Association.  Anything I can to to 
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >help the 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>movement, I still gladly do.
> 
> >>
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >>>So you seem to be saying that they've been a bit political to 
say 
> 
> >>>the least.  But the same could be said of any incorporated 
> 
> >>>      
> 
> >>>
> 
> >business 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>>or religious organization.  Do you feel that they actually did 
> 
> >>>something bad or wrong?
> 
> >>>
> 
> >>>      
> 
> >>>
> 
> >>You must understand that I am an idealist.  Self interested 
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >politics are 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>expected in for profit corporations.  After all, their sole 
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >purpose for 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>their existence is to make money in any way they can. The 
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >interests of 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>the CEO's is understandably to make sure that they get a nice 
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >piece of 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>that pie for themselves. Religious, philosophical and 
educational 
> 
> >>organizations have very different agendas. Their purpose is to 
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >tend to 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>the spiritual and intellectual needs of the people. There is no 
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >place 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>for self interest in these organizations, and because it happens 
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >anyway 
> 
> >  
> 
> >
> 
> >>does not make it OK with me.
> 
> >>
> 
> >>    
> 
> >>
> 
> >>>Honestly, I've just been attending some weekly teachings and 
> 
> >>>courses, paying each applicable donation per visit which is 

=== message truncated ===

		
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