Re: Theos-World Jerry- Fundamentalist misrepresentations of the Bible
Mar 27, 2006 06:05 PM
by Jerry Hejka-Ekins
And aside from these failures which you attribute to the
Theosophical Society, in what ways do you think they have still been
subsequently successful today?
Actually I attribute the failures of the Theosophical Society to the
leadership. The Theosophical Society and its members were the victims.
IMO, its greatest success today has been their efforts to publish and
keep in print the collected writings of Blavatsky.
What things still appeal to you about the Theosophical Society today?
They have an outstanding library at the National Headquarters. They
publish some important classics. I like many of its members.
I believe that not-for-profit corporations are just as money-
centered as for-profit corporations. They both require money to
operate, and are permeated with organizational politics at their
highest ranks. They just obtain their money in different ways.
Yes, non profits organizations, like any other effort requires money to
operate. And, I suspect that certain non profit organizations, like
United Way, is primarily oriented to collecting and distributing money.
With its highly paid officers including its CEO which collects a
multi-million dollar salary, I'm sure that there is a lot of politics.
On the other hand, such places as the United Way have move far away from
the original concept of non-profits, and are not necessarily
representative. I am president-founder of a non-profit educational
organization. The Board meetings typically last for 3 to 4 hours. The
treasurer's report takes 5 to 10 minutes. The rest of the time we talk
about planning programs, classes, our journal etc. Rather than talking
about how to get more money, we talk about and plan services. No one on
the Board, or connected in any way with the organization receives a
salary. In fact, Board members are required to donate a predetermined
amount of their own money to the organization. However, volunteers are
reimbursed for out of pocket expenses--but not for their time. What I
am saying is that is is quite possible for non profit organizations to
be primarily focused on service--not getting money. They do not have to
be "money centered". We have proved that.
I believe that religious, philosophical and educational
organizations are first and foremost out to make money.
Not ours.
Their services are strictly delivered at a price.
Ours are on a donation bases. Some people pay and some don't.
They may meet spiritual
and intellectual needs, but only for a monetary fee. Money is
central and donations are key.
Not in our case. Service is key.
I suggest that there is such a wealth in the Bible that we currently
retain, that even if we lost another 50% of it today, we'd still
retain more spiritual treasure within it than we could qualitatively
ingest in a lifetime.
Have you studied scriptures of other religions and spiritualities?
I'm not sure where you get this idea. I suggest that the gospels
were very much intended as historical texts, even if
evangelistically focused. Luke attempts to focus on each detail for
accuracy, for example. Now one may say that the historical methods
of recording and/or verifying information 2000 years ago was not as
precise as it is today, but the gospels are historically-intended
documents nonetheless, even while remaining evangelistic.
I got the idea from a lifetime of reading the scriptures, reading the
works of theologians and of secular Biblical scholars, and doing my own
research on the subject.
I suggest that the historicity of the gospels and the presence of
Greek cultural overtones are not mutually exclusive. The two can
exist together.
What parts do you find historical? What parts do you find "mythical"?
What parts do you find evangelical?
These historical difficulties do not elimate the fact that the
gospels are originally intended as historical documents. Rather,
you're just not satisfied with their degree of historical accuracy
by today's standards. Those are two very different scenarios.
By historical difficulties, I mean that they most probably never occurred.
Yes, some of these practices were used by ancient Indians. I'm not
certain how you're using the term 'spiritual clairvoyance'
"Spiritual clairvoyance" is direct spiritual perception that bypasses
the mind and visionary images. It come through a center of perception
that does not involve the mind.
, but I
nonetheless suggest that higher spirituality is not attained without
first opening up the lower psychic realms for purposes of
cleansing. In this sense, one must pass through the hells (the
darkness of the psychic subconscious) before entering the heavens
(gaining spiritual enlightenment).
Interesting idea. The traditions I follow warn about the snares of
psychism. But I also know the dangers from experience. I used to work
in an open setting psychiatric hospital where I had the chance to
observe and interact with lots of very psychic people. Some were
telepathic, some had visions, some had conversations with God etc.
Since I also have some natural abilities, I could see a lot of things
that were going on that the psychiatrists had no idea about.
This is very similar to the concept that Jesus himself descended
into the hells and subsequently ascended into the heavens. Or when
he was tempted by the devil in the wilderness prior to his earthly
ministry.
Is this story, for you, historical, allegorical, metaphorical or...?
If the lower psychic centers are not opened so that they can be
cleansed, we will merely adopt a materialistic pseudo-spirituality
as a result, which is even more dangerous than opening up the lower
psychic centers of our subconscious.
What do you mean by "materialistic pseudo-spirituality" and "lower
psychic centers of our unconscious"?
Best
Jerry
Vincent wrote:
Jerry-
You wrote:
"I think the Theosophical Society began to fail in 1885, and the
first signs of it beginning to depart from the ideal of it's
founders began in the fall of 1890."
And aside from these failures which you attribute to the
Theosophical Society, in what ways do you think they have still been
subsequently successful today?
"My wife and I recently attended a weekend seminar at Krotona. We
had a good time. Got to see old friends and walked around the
grounds remembering the many people who once live there are are now
gone. I am a life member of the TS. I still work with the TS
whenever they ask my assistance. For instance, I was helping the
former librarian at Olcott on a project to complete sets of rare
journals to be microfilmed at the American Theological Library
Association. Anything I can to to help the movement, I still gladly
do."
What things still appeal to you about the Theosophical Society today?
"You must understand that I am an idealist. Self interested
politics are expected in for profit corporations. After all, their
sole purpose for their existence is to make money in any way they
can. The interests of the CEO's is understandably to make sure that
they get a nice piece of that pie for themselves."
I believe that not-for-profit corporations are just as money-
centered as for-profit corporations. They both require money to
operate, and are permeated with organizational politics at their
highest ranks. They just obtain their money in different ways.
"Religious, philosophical and educational organizations have very
different agendas. Their purpose is to tend to the spiritual and
intellectual needs of the people. There is no place for self
interest in these organizations, and because it happens anyway does
not make it OK with me."
I believe that religious, philosophical and educational
organizations are first and foremost out to make money. Their
services are strictly delivered at a price. They may meet spiritual
and intellectual needs, but only for a monetary fee. Money is
central and donations are key.
"I'm sure that you will learn quite a lot there. You have a valuable
resource near your door. You are very lucky."
Thank you. Yes, I feel lucky to have the National headquarters of
the Theosophical Society just 20 minutes away from me.
"We have what we have and the Biblical scholars are doing the best
they can with it. They would just like to have back the 150 or so
texts they know about that were destroyed by the church authorities,
and the unknown more that must have also existed."
I suggest that there is such a wealth in the Bible that we currently
retain, that even if we lost another 50% of it today, we'd still
retain more spiritual treasure within it than we could qualitatively
ingest in a lifetime.
"How can I answer this question? They are all historical texts in
the sense that they are old. So in this meaning, they are all
historically valid. But as I mentioned earlier, none of these
texts were written as historical accounts of an event."
I'm not sure where you get this idea. I suggest that the gospels
were very much intended as historical texts, even if
evangelistically focused. Luke attempts to focus on each detail for
accuracy, for example. Now one may say that the historical methods
of recording and/or verifying information 2000 years ago was not as
precise as it is today, but the gospels are historically-intended
documents nonetheless, even while remaining evangelistic.
"The Gospels are written around a series of actions with powerful
cultural connotations which touched upon Greek spirituality and
aroused spiritual responses: the virgin birth; turning water to
wine; healing the Bind man; chasing the demons into the pigs etc.
Understanding how the Greeks understood these images requires a
study in Greek religion. That is why when we started our class in
the Origins of Christianity, be began with a study of Greek, Roman
and Egyptian religion, and preceded these by a three year study of
Judaism."
I suggest that the historicity of the gospels and the presence of
Greek cultural overtones are not mutually exclusive. The two can
exist together.
"As for the presumably historical elements in the Gospel scriptures:
Birth at Bethlehem; flight to Egypt; the 12 apostles; the Jesu Logia;
the over turning of the money changer's tables; the Sanhedrin trial;
the interview with Pilate; the passion, all are riddled with
historical difficulties."
These historical difficulties do not elimate the fact that the
gospels are originally intended as historical documents. Rather,
you're just not satisfied with their degree of historical accuracy
by today's standards. Those are two very different scenarios.
"I wasn't thinking of drug use. But yes, I agree, it is very
risky. I am saying that certain practices which do not involve
drugs, which force open the "doors of perception" as Huxley called
it, can also have bad results."
That all depends on how much force you use. I've personally
experienced that delicate force can have rather good results as well.
"You description reminds me of practices carried on by some Indian
sadhus, and also some Native American practices. They open the lower
psychic realms in induce visions etc. but are useless for the
development of the real spiritual clairvoyance."
Yes, some of these practices were used by ancient Indians. I'm not
certain how you're using the term 'spiritual clairvoyance', but I
nonetheless suggest that higher spirituality is not attained without
first opening up the lower psychic realms for purposes of
cleansing. In this sense, one must pass through the hells (the
darkness of the psychic subconscious) before entering the heavens
(gaining spiritual enlightenment).
This is very similar to the concept that Jesus himself descended
into the hells and subsequently ascended into the heavens. Or when
he was tempted by the devil in the wilderness prior to his earthly
ministry.
If the lower psychic centers are not opened so that they can be
cleansed, we will merely adopt a materialistic pseudo-spirituality
as a result, which is even more dangerous than opening up the lower
psychic centers of our subconscious.
Blessings
Vince
--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@...>
wrote:
Dear Vince,
Do you somehow feel that the Theosophical Society of Wheaton,
where
I have recently been attending, has departed from the ideals of
it's
founders?
I think the Theosophical Society began to fail in 1885, and the
first
signs of it beginning to depart from the ideal of it's founders
began in
the fall of 1890.
Do you still personally attend there, or have you
altogether ceased?
My wife and I recently attended a weekend seminar at Krotona. We
had a
good time. Got to see old friends and walked around the grounds
remembering the many people who once live there are are now gone.
I am
a life member of the TS. I still work with the TS whenever they
ask my
assistance. For instance, I was helping the former librarian at
Olcott
on a project to complete sets of rare journals to be microfilmed
at the
American Theological Library Association. Anything I can to to
help the
movement, I still gladly do.
So you seem to be saying that they've been a bit political to say
the least. But the same could be said of any incorporated
business
or religious organization. Do you feel that they actually did
something bad or wrong?
You must understand that I am an idealist. Self interested
politics are
expected in for profit corporations. After all, their sole
purpose for
their existence is to make money in any way they can. The
interests of
the CEO's is understandably to make sure that they get a nice
piece of
that pie for themselves. Religious, philosophical and educational
organizations have very different agendas. Their purpose is to
tend to
the spiritual and intellectual needs of the people. There is no
place
for self interest in these organizations, and because it happens
anyway
does not make it OK with me.
Honestly, I've just been attending some weekly teachings and
courses, paying each applicable donation per visit which is
necessary to run the meetings. Perhaps I will learn some things
there, and I believe that I have already as well.
I'm sure that you will learn quite a lot there. You have a
valuable
resource near your door. You are very lucky.
I would suggest that, even if the Bible is so grossly edited as
you
assert, we nonetheless have enough of it historically intact to
make
useful reading of it. Granted it may be fragmented, but we still
have a reasonable amount to constuctively work with.
We have what we have and the Biblical scholars are doing the best
they
can with it. They would just like to have back the 150 or so
texts they
know about that were destroyed by the church authorities, and the
unknown more that must have also existed.
What portions of the Bible, if any, do you believe remain
historically valid? Is it all bad, or just parts thereof?
How can I answer this question? They are all historical texts in
the
sense that they are old. So in this meaning, they are all
historically
valid. But as I mentioned earlier, none of these texts were
written as
historical accounts of an event. The Gospels are written around a
series of actions with powerful cultural connotations which
touched upon
Greek spirituality and aroused spiritual responses: the virgin
birth;
turning water to wine; healing the Bind man; chasing the demons
into the
pigs etc. Understanding how the Greeks understood these images
requires
a study in Greek religion. That is why when we started our class
in the
Origins of Christianity, be began with a study of Greek, Roman and
Egyptian religion, and preceded these by a three year study of
Judaism.
As for the presumably historical elements in the Gospel
scriptures:
Birth at Bethlehem; flight to Egypt; the 12 apostles; the Jesu
Logia;
the over turning of the money changer's tables; the Sanhedrin
trial; the
interview with Pilate; the passion, all are riddled with
historical
difficulties.
These dangers moreso exist in the context of those who use
illegitimate consciousness-expanding drugs to induce their
trances.
I wasn't thinking of drug use. But yes, I agree, it is very
risky. I
am saying that certain practices which do not involve drugs, which
force
open the "doors of perception" as Huxley called it, can also have
bad
results.
Whereas, my own trance-conditioning is completely the opposite,
and
revolves around natural physiological conditioning, such as
recycling the waking/sleeping rhythms and fasting/eating rhythms,
more after the manner of an athlete. Hence, my trances are a bit
more difficult to induce, but are easily shut down. Bodily self-
mastery, much like a bodybuilder, versus crass chemical
augmentation.
You description reminds me of practices carried on by some Indian
sadhus, and also some Native American practices. They open the
lower
psychic realms in induce visions etc. but are useless for the
development of the real spiritual clairvoyance.
Best
Jerry
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