Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt01473)

You wrote:

"I think the Theosophical Society began to fail in 1885, and the 
first signs of it beginning to depart from the ideal of it's 
founders began in the fall of 1890."

And aside from these failures which you attribute to the 
Theosophical Society, in what ways do you think they have still been 
subsequently successful today?

"My wife and I recently attended a weekend seminar at Krotona.  We 
had a good time.  Got to see old friends and walked around the 
grounds remembering the many people who once live there are are now 
gone.  I am a life member of the TS.  I still work with the TS 
whenever they ask my assistance.  For instance, I was helping the 
former librarian at Olcott on a project to complete sets of rare 
journals to be microfilmed at the American Theological Library 
Association.  Anything I can to to help the movement, I still gladly 
do."

What things still appeal to you about the Theosophical Society today?

"You must understand that I am an idealist.  Self interested 
politics are expected in for profit corporations.  After all, their 
sole purpose for their existence is to make money in any way they 
can. The interests of the CEO's is understandably to make sure that 
they get a nice piece of that pie for themselves."

I believe that not-for-profit corporations are just as money-
centered as for-profit corporations.  They both require money to 
operate, and are permeated with organizational politics at their 
highest ranks.  They just obtain their money in different ways.

"Religious, philosophical and educational organizations have very 
different agendas. Their purpose is to tend to the spiritual and 
intellectual needs of the people. There is no place for self 
interest in these organizations, and because it happens anyway does 
not make it OK with me."

I believe that religious, philosophical and educational 
organizations are first and foremost out to make money.  Their 
services are strictly delivered at a price.  They may meet spiritual 
and intellectual needs, but only for a monetary fee.  Money is 
central and donations are key.

"I'm sure that you will learn quite a lot there.  You have a valuable
resource near your door.  You are very lucky."

Thank you.  Yes, I feel lucky to have the National headquarters of 
the Theosophical Society just 20 minutes away from me.

"We have what we have and the Biblical scholars are doing the best 
they can with it.  They would just like to have back the 150 or so 
texts they know about that were destroyed by the church authorities, 
and the unknown more that must have also existed."

I suggest that there is such a wealth in the Bible that we currently 
retain, that even if we lost another 50% of it today, we'd still 
retain more spiritual treasure within it than we could qualitatively 
ingest in a lifetime.

"How can I answer this question?  They are all historical texts in 
the sense that they are old.  So in this meaning, they are all 
historically valid.   But as I mentioned earlier, none of these 
texts were written as historical accounts of an event."

I'm not sure where you get this idea.  I suggest that the gospels 
were very much intended as historical texts, even if 
evangelistically focused.  Luke attempts to focus on each detail for 
accuracy, for example.  Now one may say that the historical methods 
of recording and/or verifying information 2000 years ago was not as 
precise as it is today, but the gospels are historically-intended 
documents nonetheless, even while remaining evangelistic.

"The Gospels are written around a series of actions with powerful 
cultural connotations which touched upon Greek spirituality and 
aroused spiritual responses: the virgin birth; turning water to 
wine; healing the Bind man; chasing the demons into the pigs etc.  
Understanding how the Greeks understood these images requires a 
study in Greek religion.  That is why when we started our class in 
the Origins of Christianity, be began with a study of Greek, Roman 
and Egyptian religion, and preceded these by a three year study of 
Judaism."

I suggest that the historicity of the gospels and the presence of 
Greek cultural overtones are not mutually exclusive.  The two can 
exist together.

"As for the presumably historical elements in the Gospel scriptures:
Birth at Bethlehem; flight to Egypt; the 12 apostles; the Jesu Logia;
the over turning of the money changer's tables; the Sanhedrin trial; 
the interview with Pilate; the passion, all are riddled with 
historical difficulties."

These historical difficulties do not elimate the fact that the 
gospels are originally intended as historical documents.  Rather, 
you're just not satisfied with their degree of historical accuracy 
by today's standards.  Those are two very different scenarios.

"I wasn't thinking of drug use.  But yes, I agree, it is very 
risky.  I am saying that certain practices which do not involve 
drugs, which force open the "doors of perception" as Huxley called 
it, can also have bad results."

That all depends on how much force you use.  I've personally 
experienced that delicate force can have rather good results as well.

"You description reminds me of practices carried on by some Indian
sadhus, and also some Native American practices.  They open the lower
psychic realms in induce visions etc. but are useless for the
development of the real spiritual clairvoyance."

Yes, some of these practices were used by ancient Indians.  I'm not 
certain how you're using the term 'spiritual clairvoyance', but I 
nonetheless suggest that higher spirituality is not attained without 
first opening up the lower psychic realms for purposes of 
cleansing.  In this sense, one must pass through the hells (the 
darkness of the psychic subconscious) before entering the heavens 
(gaining spiritual enlightenment).

This is very similar to the concept that Jesus himself descended 
into the hells and subsequently ascended into the heavens.  Or when 
he was tempted by the devil in the wilderness prior to his earthly 
ministry.

If the lower psychic centers are not opened so that they can be 
cleansed, we will merely adopt a materialistic pseudo-spirituality 
as a result, which is even more dangerous than opening up the lower 
psychic centers of our subconscious.

Blessings

Vince

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@...> 
wrote:
>
> Dear Vince,
> 
> >Do you somehow feel that the Theosophical Society of Wheaton, 
where 
> >I have recently been attending, has departed from the ideals of 
it's 
> >founders?  
> >
> I think the Theosophical Society began to fail in 1885, and the 
first 
> signs of it beginning to depart from the ideal of it's founders 
began in 
> the fall of 1890. 
> 
> >Do you still personally attend there, or have you 
> >altogether ceased?
> >
> My wife and I recently attended a weekend seminar at Krotona.  We 
had a 
> good time.  Got to see old friends and walked around the grounds 
> remembering the many people who once live there are are now gone.  
I am 
> a life member of the TS.  I still work with the TS whenever they 
ask my 
> assistance.  For instance, I was helping the former librarian at 
Olcott 
> on a project to complete sets of rare journals to be microfilmed 
at the 
> American Theological Library Association.  Anything I can to to 
help the 
> movement, I still gladly do.
> 
> >So you seem to be saying that they've been a bit political to say 
> >the least.  But the same could be said of any incorporated 
business 
> >or religious organization.  Do you feel that they actually did 
> >something bad or wrong?
> >
> You must understand that I am an idealist.  Self interested 
politics are 
> expected in for profit corporations.  After all, their sole 
purpose for 
> their existence is to make money in any way they can. The 
interests of 
> the CEO's is understandably to make sure that they get a nice 
piece of 
> that pie for themselves. Religious, philosophical and educational 
> organizations have very different agendas. Their purpose is to 
tend to 
> the spiritual and intellectual needs of the people. There is no 
place 
> for self interest in these organizations, and because it happens 
anyway 
> does not make it OK with me.
> 
> >Honestly, I've just been attending some weekly teachings and 
> >courses, paying each applicable donation per visit which is 
> >necessary to run the meetings.  Perhaps I will learn some things 
> >there, and I believe that I have already as well.
> >
> I'm sure that you will learn quite a lot there.  You have a 
valuable 
> resource near your door.  You are very lucky. 
> 
> >I would suggest that, even if the Bible is so grossly edited as 
you 
> >assert, we nonetheless have enough of it historically intact to 
make 
> >useful reading of it.  Granted it may be fragmented, but we still 
> >have a reasonable amount to constuctively work with.
> >
> We have what we have and the Biblical scholars are doing the best 
they 
> can with it.  They would just like to have back the 150 or so 
texts they 
> know about that were destroyed by the church authorities, and the 
> unknown more that must have also existed.
> 
> >What portions of the Bible, if any, do you believe remain 
> >historically valid?  Is it all bad, or just parts thereof?
> >
> How can I answer this question?  They are all historical texts in 
the 
> sense that they are old.  So in this meaning, they are all 
historically 
> valid.   But as I mentioned earlier, none of these texts were 
written as 
> historical accounts of an event.  The Gospels are written around a 
> series of actions with powerful cultural connotations which 
touched upon 
> Greek spirituality and aroused spiritual responses: the virgin 
birth; 
> turning water to wine; healing the Bind man; chasing the demons 
into the 
> pigs etc.  Understanding how the Greeks understood these images 
requires 
> a study in Greek religion.  That is why when we started our class 
in the 
> Origins of Christianity, be began with a study of Greek, Roman and 
> Egyptian religion, and preceded these by a three year study of 
Judaism.
> 
> As for the presumably historical elements in the Gospel 
scriptures: 
> Birth at Bethlehem; flight to Egypt; the 12 apostles; the Jesu 
Logia; 
> the over turning of the money changer's tables; the Sanhedrin 
trial; the 
> interview with Pilate; the passion, all are riddled with 
historical 
> difficulties.
> 
> >These dangers moreso exist in the context of those who use 
> >illegitimate consciousness-expanding drugs to induce their 
trances.  
> >
> I wasn't thinking of drug use.  But yes, I agree, it is very 
risky.  I 
> am saying that certain practices which do not involve drugs, which 
force 
> open the "doors of perception" as Huxley called it, can also have 
bad 
> results.
> 
> >Whereas, my own trance-conditioning is completely the opposite, 
and 
> >revolves around natural physiological conditioning, such as 
> >recycling the waking/sleeping rhythms and fasting/eating rhythms, 
> >more after the manner of an athlete.  Hence, my trances are a bit 
> >more difficult to induce, but are easily shut down.  Bodily self-
> >mastery, much like a bodybuilder, versus crass chemical 
augmentation.
> >
> You description reminds me of practices carried on by some Indian 
> sadhus, and also some Native American practices.  They open the 
lower 
> psychic realms in induce visions etc. but are useless for the 
> development of the real spiritual clairvoyance.
> 
> 
> Best
> Jerry