Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt01118)

Vince
   
        Essentially, you are asking a question to which the answer can be given as quotations from within many aspects of Eastern Literature. It might also be answered by yourself, from your own study. In fact this is the best and most appropriate way.
       So, please know that although I will give you my views on this, the change of mind required for you to be receptive of an answer on this, is very much like taking the leap from a sectarian view of God to the deeply philosophical views held by Soctrates, Pythagorus, Shakespeare, Emerson and other great thinkers in the West, and too many Eastern Authors to mention.
       So, it has been taught that man is perfectable. That he has the highest, most rarified and compassionate heart within him, as well as the power to know wisdom since, in that Heart of Hearts of each of us, resides the power to know. This is called Soul, monad, the Higher Self, etc. Some have said that when Jesus said "to go into your closet and worship thy Father, which is in Heaven" (This is the best I can remember), that he, as an Adept or Master, was talking about the Higher Self in each of us, which God like perspective looks directly upon Universal Wisdom. 
       Masters, or Mahatmas, which means Great Soul in Sanskrit, are men who have practiced this teaching for countless lives, and have thereby freed themselves from selfishness through identification with the Univeseral ONE, which was revealed to them through their own Higher Self. Their first duty, they have said, is to alert (really remind) humanity to their Brotherhood, and that as individuals, aught to follow the great ethical teachings of "do unto others.." (however differently worded in different cultures). It is taught that these beings form a Brotherhood out of which periodically comes one of their own and teaches this wisdom to any that will hear. At times they find students, having done a similar kind of work upon themselves, who are ready to hear the deeper teaching and these become disciples of that particular perspective adopted by that Mahatma. It is always truth, but oriented towards the people amongst whom this great being finds himself. To this end, there is one
 Universal Wisdom Religion (called theosophy in our time) given out in many psychological orientations.
      Here is a kind of basic awareness.
   
  Steve

Vincent <vblaz2004@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
  Steve-

Who specifically are the 'masters' and are they ethical? 
The 'masters' that I've found in written texts mostly go back to the 
Bible. I'm speaking of miracle workers such as Jesus, Moses and 
Elijah, Peter and Paul. Some of these are reported as having raised 
the dead or ascending itno heaven themselves. Metaphysical masters.

But were these masters completely ethical? The miracles of Moses 
were mostly of a destructive nature, bringing ten plagues on the 
Egyptians, and perhaps ten more on his own Israelites. Further, he 
and his immediate succussor Joshua were propagators of genocide, 
exterminating six nationalities from the face of the earth. And the 
very angels of heaven which backed him, according to biblical 
testimony, were also quite violent and genocidal.

Likewise Elijah, who reportedly ascended directly into heaven, 
bypassing physical death, also slew people with supernatural fire 
from the sky. Despite resurrecting a dead boy, according to the 
scriptures.

Peter and Paul of the New Testament are also biblically recorded as 
each having resurrected the dead, and yet enforced harsh cultural 
legalisms on women in their day.

What precisely is a 'master' and are 'masters' ethical?

-

It may even be asserted that the gods of ancient mythology may 
actually have been immortal beings that once walked the earth prior 
to recorded history as we have it today. But did these 
ancient 'gods' also practice good ethics? Or were some of them 
bloody and violent as well?

-

Now I suppose that there are different types of mastery available 
within the human potential, each with their own jurisdictional 
spheres. One is a master of accounting, another a master at sales, 
another a master of corporate management, another a master of 
artistry, literature or dance. Still others are masters of ethics 
but not wisdom, psychic mastery but not physical athleticism. 
Whatever it may be.

So again I ask: what precisely is a 'master'? And a master of what?

Vince

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey wrote:
>
> Vince
> When you mention "wholistic" regarding the fact the TS 
includes other works besides HPBs, you raise an interesting point.
> I was originally involved with the TS years ago, and I felt 
as if I had found a mother-lode of metaphysical occult literature. 
and this is true. Over the years, however, I found my own tastes 
changing from an open texture rather undisciplined sense of study to 
a "way" of my own, and I began to eliminate texts which, to me, 
where too indirect regarding the Path of individual work. I wanted 
to know what I needed to actually do to know Wisdom, which wisdom 
was really neccesary for my own "awakening", and most importantly-
what are the Masters of Wisdom. I found that some texts were 
concerned with the fundemental teachings of the ancient wisdom, 
without concern for the author, just the learning of the student. I 
found that many were not and made claims of visions and knowledge, 
which seemed to me, to jump ahead of what I could verify as real. 
So, I kept finding myself going back to the fundemental teachings 
regarding the neccesary changes I had to make in me, with which I 
would know
> what is real and what is not. My biggest problem was always me 
and my lack of patience. I needed to rid myself of the so-called 
normal time sense of people in our time, which prompts us to quickly 
and prematurely aquire powers before we understand what power is. I 
kept finding that some few texts want the student to find out what a 
human being is, the knowledge of which I thought I had, being 
preumptious and shallow. Which really means, that for a shallow 
nature to aquire power would be dangerous.
> Therefore, I kept finding myself being attracted back to 
HPB's writings, along with Patanjali, the Dalai Lama, and other 
insightful Buddhist thinkers like Santideva, who deal in ethical 
growth along side, but actually preceding, the metaphysical study, 
for the sake of psychological balance. Their motive is service as 
the key to finding out who you are and your capacities, while an 
unbalanced study may still allow for selfishness, and misuse of 
knowledge.
> Well, thats the Path of study for me, but it came about 
through an open study of pretty much everything.
> 
> Steve
> 
> Vincent wrote:
> Steve-
> 
> Actually, my primary intent for recently getting involved with the 
> Theosophical Society of Wheaton has mostly to do with having a 
place 
> wherein I may freely believe what I already do, and learn new 
things 
> of a metaphysical content as well.
> 
> When I was formerly involved with Christian fundamentalist 
churches, 
> I found myself judged and restricted whenever attempting to bring 
up 
> metaphysical concepts in open discussion format. I was told that I 
> was not being 'doctrinal', and that my metaphysical experiences 
> were 'demonic', insofar as they were not strictly aligned with 
> Christian doctrine.
> 
> However, my initial impression of the Theosophical Society is that 
> it is accepting of a variety of religious traditions, and not 
solely 
> specific to HPB's writings. It is more wholistic. Please correct 
> me if I am wrong on this.
> 
> Vince
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey wrote:
> >
> > Ah Vince, that's a mighty deep rational you have for what you 
do. 
> Hopefully you will get from us exactly what you aught.
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> > Vincent wrote:
> > Steve-
> > 
> > I appreciate your insight and your suggestion, and I see the 
value 
> > to it. It's just that at this specific time in my life, my focus 
> > must be a little bit different. In other words, I've already 
> poured 
> > many thousands of hours into various metaphysical texts over the 
> > last twenty years, and have therefore arrived at a very complex 
> and 
> > advanced metaphysical belief system as a result. At this time, I 
> am 
> > undertaking the attempt to write a volume as large as HPB's, and 
> > therefore cannot dedicate fully researching a brand new text.
> > 
> > I suggest that there exist the roles of teachers whose specific 
> task 
> > is to dispense information to others, if they do not have the 
> > immediate time and energy to gather it for themselves. I'm not 
> > saying that direct readings of HPB lack value in any way. That's 
> > just not where I'm at right now.
> > 
> > Currently, I engage in trance conditioning through natural 
> > physiological disciplines, without the use of chemical 
modifiers. 
> > This means that I interact directly with spirit entities, seeing 
> > them and hearing them when I enter into trance. And this is the 
> > level from whence my writings will manifest inspiration. I am 
just 
> > curious to see what degree of alignment exists between HPB's 
> > writings and my own belief system at this time, so I'd like to 
> learn 
> > more through those gifted teachers and students of HPB.
> > 
> > Vince
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey wrote:
> > >
> > > Vince
> > > 
> > > I am aware of how daunting the very thickness of these 
> > texts can appear, but I really think that you are doing yourself 
a 
> > great disservice, by not doing the study yourself, and expecting 
> > others to, sort of, hand it to you in some palatable form 
intended 
> > just for you. This is a great deal like going to church or 
temple 
> > and expecting the paid servent on the pulpit to do the same 
thing. 
> > > Now please, don't take this wrong, but an important aspect 
> > of the philosophy of becoming a discriminating human being and 
> > student, is, so that what you find for yourself will be 
something 
> > you can trust in. "We are all Gods", says the ancient wisdom, 
> > or "You too can do what I have done" as Jesus says. In other 
> words, 
> > we have what we need within us, we just have to flesh it out. 
That 
> > is the purpose of theosophical thought, not the memorization of 
> > thick texts. But the study of them, and application of what we 
see 
> > as true, brings rewards immediately, as the mind wakes up to its 
> own 
> > powers of wisdom and discrimination.
> > > 
> > > Steve
> > > 
> > > Vincent wrote:
> > > Steve-
> > > 
> > > I'm just trying to understand what I can about Theosophy, 
> insofar 
> > as 
> > > it is new to me. HPB's writings are so extensive in such large 
> > > volumes that I'm honestly a little bit daunted as to where to 
> > begin, 
> > > so I'm likely going to be relying on secondary abridgments for 
> > > awhile. In other words, someone's probably going to have to 
> teach 
> > > it to me in the form of abridged quotes, before I get into 
> > extensive 
> > > reading of the core volumes.
> > > 
> > > Christians claim that the Bible contains 'absolute truth', 
both 
> > > inerrant and infallible. But this then leaves those portions 
of 
> > > universal truth concerning which we lack a firm and total 
grasp. 
> > > Namely 'occult' truth, or anything which has not been declared 
> to 
> > > be 'absolute truth' by the Christian community. Hence 
universal 
> > > truth may potentially be subdivided into categories 
of 'absolute 
> > > truth' and 'occult truth'. Of course, I don't believe that any 
> of 
> > > us really has a firm grasp on 'absolute truth' in the first 
> place, 
> > > insofar as our minds are mortal, and we commonly have errors 
> > > somewhere in every belief that we hold, whether small or 
great. 
> > > Hence so many different biblical interpretations among 
> Christians.
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Vince-
> > > > 
> > > > Your intution about the reason for the term "Secret" in The 
> > > Secret Doctrine is somewhat correct, but, it is also a bit to 
> > quick 
> > > a judgement. I'm afraid you are going to have to study the 
> thing, 
> > to 
> > > get a really good idea about the use of her terms. However, in 
> > doing 
> > > so, I found it wise to read HPB in a thorough way to begin to 
> > > undestand her motivation. By this I mean, read The Key to 
> > Theosophy, 
> > > and study The Voice of the Silence, as well, or something like 
> > that. 
> > > Or, pick up one of her collected writtings of shorter 
articles, 
> or 
> > > the Panarion. Mostly all of these are available at the Public 
> > > Library, but definately on-line or in Theosophy Lodges of 
> > different 
> > > types.
> > > > 
> > > > Good Searching-Steve
> > > > 
> > > > Vincent Blazina wrote:
> > > > Perry:
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks for the welcome. The Jehovah's Witnesses that you 
refer 
> > > also seem to have some narrow biblical interpretations, much 
> like 
> > > Christian fundamentalists. I'm curious about what some of the 
> > > similarities and differences are between the Bible and the 
> Secret 
> > > Doctrine. Why is the Secret Doctrine considered to be secret? 
> Does 
> > > this simply mean that it is occult (meaning hidden) in nature? 
> My 
> > > own biblical interpretations go very deep for me, and are 
> anything 
> > > but dry, although I view Christian fundamentalists as often 
> > shallow 
> > > in their own biblical interpretations much of the time.
> > > > 
> > > > Vince
> > > > 
> > > > plcoles1 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > Hello Vince, 
> > > > Welcome to theos-talk!
> > > > My background was in the Jehovah's Witnesses and so as a 
> result 
> > > had what amounted to at 
> > > > least 5 1/2 hours a week of meetings to attend, and NO 
> > questioning 
> > > what you were being 
> > > > told.
> > > > 
> > > > The thing I've found with studying theosophy for someone who 
> has 
> > > studied the Bible is 
> > > > that theosophy and in particular the Secret Doctrine opens 
up 
> > many 
> > > interesting and 
> > > > profound interpretations of passages in the Bible.
> > > > 
> > > > An interesting article written by H.P Blavatsky is `The 
> Esoteric 
> > > character of the Gospels'
> > > > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-sio/sio-eso2.htm
> > > > It's a good place to start as the Secret Doctrine can be a 
> > little 
> > > bit daunting to begin with.
> > > > 
> > > > After only hearing what was to me very empty and dry 
> > > interpretations of the Bible, 
> > > > theosophy can help you to begin to get some kind of 
> > understanding 
> > > as to the deeper 
> > > > meaning in the bible as well as what other great thinkers, 
> sages 
> > > and philosophers from 
> > > > various traditions have taught on these subjects which may 
> help 
> > > you have some context 
> > > > and reference point for your own experiences.
> > > > Very Best Wishes on your Spiritual journey and once again 
> > Welcome 
> > > to the theos-talk!
> > > > 
> > > > Regards
> > > > 
> > > > Perry
> > > > 
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "vblaz20042004" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi there, I'm Vince and I am new to the group. I have 
> recently 
> > > been 
> > > > > attending the Theosophical Society of Wheaton, Illinois 
for 
> > the 
> > > past 
> > > > > month, and have been enjoying the various teachings and 
> > > discussions 
> > > > > at that facility.
> > > > > 
> > > > > My life has been rich with metaphysical experiences, but 
the 
> > > > > Christian Fundamentalist churches that I had previously 
> > attended 
> > > for 
> > > > > twenty years got very judgmental towards me when I might 
> > venture 
> > > to 
> > > > > reference them. I also began finding many inconsistencies 
> with 
> > > the 
> > > > > way that many Christians were representing the Bible, and 
my 
> > > > > questions about Christianity were often deemed dangerous 
to 
> > > people's 
> > > > > religious faith.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I am looking for a place in the Theosophical Society 
wherein 
> I 
> > > may 
> > > > > potentially freely discuss metaphysical issues as they 
> > directly 
> > > > > pertain to my life, with people who are more open to such 
> > > > > discussions. I am very well read with the Bible, although 
my 
> > > > > interpretations of it are more metaphysical versus 
orthodox.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I look forward to constuctive discussion with the people 
> here, 
> > > and 
> > > > > would like to learn more about the Theosophical Society 
and 
> > it's 
> > > > > perspectives, insofar as many of them are brand new to me.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thank you,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Vince
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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> > > > 
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