Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt01150)

Steve-

And do you feel that I am in disagreement with this somehow?  
Apparently you have judged my belief system to be differentiated 
from your own, perhaps based on classical projection.  You may want 
to start and see where we agree, versus disagree, if you're trying 
to educate me or make a connection, rather than focus on some 
pretended chasm between us.

We may have studied different texts, but if you feel that all 
metaphysical texts are useful for enlightenment, then you may also 
wish to acknowledge the unity of spirit and universal truth which 
exists within all human beings of every religion or creed.

I've already answered for myself the questions that I've asked you 
to my reasonable satisfaction.  The reason that I had specifically 
asked you these questions was to gain your view, as opposed to my 
own. 

Please also reference that the Bible is Eastern literature itself, 
with the New Testament permeated with Greek philosophy.

Vince

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey <sallev1@...> wrote:
>
> Vince
>    
>         Essentially, you are asking a question to which the answer 
can be given as quotations from within many aspects of Eastern 
Literature. It might also be answered by yourself, from your own 
study. In fact this is the best and most appropriate way.
>        So, please know that although I will give you my views on 
this, the change of mind required for you to be receptive of an 
answer on this, is very much like taking the leap from a sectarian 
view of God to the deeply philosophical views held by Soctrates, 
Pythagorus, Shakespeare, Emerson and other great thinkers in the 
West, and too many Eastern Authors to mention.
>        So, it has been taught that man is perfectable. That he has 
the highest, most rarified and compassionate heart within him, as 
well as the power to know wisdom since, in that Heart of Hearts of 
each of us, resides the power to know. This is called Soul, monad, 
the Higher Self, etc. Some have said that when Jesus said "to go 
into your closet and worship thy Father, which is in Heaven" (This 
is the best I can remember), that he, as an Adept or Master, was 
talking about the Higher Self in each of us, which God like 
perspective looks directly upon Universal Wisdom. 
>        Masters, or Mahatmas, which means Great Soul in Sanskrit, 
are men who have practiced this teaching for countless lives, and 
have thereby freed themselves from selfishness through 
identification with the Univeseral ONE, which was revealed to them 
through their own Higher Self. Their first duty, they have said, is 
to alert (really remind) humanity to their Brotherhood, and that as 
individuals, aught to follow the great ethical teachings of "do unto 
others.." (however differently worded in different cultures). It is 
taught that these beings form a Brotherhood out of which 
periodically comes one of their own and teaches this wisdom to any 
that will hear. At times they find students, having done a similar 
kind of work upon themselves, who are ready to hear the deeper 
teaching and these become disciples of that particular perspective 
adopted by that Mahatma. It is always truth, but oriented towards 
the people amongst whom this great being finds himself. To this end, 
there is one
>  Universal Wisdom Religion (called theosophy in our time) given 
out in many psychological orientations.
>       Here is a kind of basic awareness.
>    
>   Steve
> 
> Vincent <vblaz2004@...> wrote:
>   Steve-
> 
> Who specifically are the 'masters' and are they ethical? 
> The 'masters' that I've found in written texts mostly go back to 
the 
> Bible. I'm speaking of miracle workers such as Jesus, Moses and 
> Elijah, Peter and Paul. Some of these are reported as having 
raised 
> the dead or ascending itno heaven themselves. Metaphysical masters.
> 
> But were these masters completely ethical? The miracles of Moses 
> were mostly of a destructive nature, bringing ten plagues on the 
> Egyptians, and perhaps ten more on his own Israelites. Further, he 
> and his immediate succussor Joshua were propagators of genocide, 
> exterminating six nationalities from the face of the earth. And 
the 
> very angels of heaven which backed him, according to biblical 
> testimony, were also quite violent and genocidal.
> 
> Likewise Elijah, who reportedly ascended directly into heaven, 
> bypassing physical death, also slew people with supernatural fire 
> from the sky. Despite resurrecting a dead boy, according to the 
> scriptures.
> 
> Peter and Paul of the New Testament are also biblically recorded 
as 
> each having resurrected the dead, and yet enforced harsh cultural 
> legalisms on women in their day.
> 
> What precisely is a 'master' and are 'masters' ethical?
> 
> -
> 
> It may even be asserted that the gods of ancient mythology may 
> actually have been immortal beings that once walked the earth 
prior 
> to recorded history as we have it today. But did these 
> ancient 'gods' also practice good ethics? Or were some of them 
> bloody and violent as well?
> 
> -
> 
> Now I suppose that there are different types of mastery available 
> within the human potential, each with their own jurisdictional 
> spheres. One is a master of accounting, another a master at sales, 
> another a master of corporate management, another a master of 
> artistry, literature or dance. Still others are masters of ethics 
> but not wisdom, psychic mastery but not physical athleticism. 
> Whatever it may be.
> 
> So again I ask: what precisely is a 'master'? And a master of what?
> 
> Vince
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey wrote:
> >
> > Vince
> > When you mention "wholistic" regarding the fact the TS 
> includes other works besides HPBs, you raise an interesting point.
> > I was originally involved with the TS years ago, and I felt 
> as if I had found a mother-lode of metaphysical occult literature. 
> and this is true. Over the years, however, I found my own tastes 
> changing from an open texture rather undisciplined sense of study 
to 
> a "way" of my own, and I began to eliminate texts which, to me, 
> where too indirect regarding the Path of individual work. I wanted 
> to know what I needed to actually do to know Wisdom, which wisdom 
> was really neccesary for my own "awakening", and most importantly-
> what are the Masters of Wisdom. I found that some texts were 
> concerned with the fundemental teachings of the ancient wisdom, 
> without concern for the author, just the learning of the student. 
I 
> found that many were not and made claims of visions and knowledge, 
> which seemed to me, to jump ahead of what I could verify as real. 
> So, I kept finding myself going back to the fundemental teachings 
> regarding the neccesary changes I had to make in me, with which I 
> would know
> > what is real and what is not. My biggest problem was always me 
> and my lack of patience. I needed to rid myself of the so-called 
> normal time sense of people in our time, which prompts us to 
quickly 
> and prematurely aquire powers before we understand what power is. 
I 
> kept finding that some few texts want the student to find out what 
a 
> human being is, the knowledge of which I thought I had, being 
> preumptious and shallow. Which really means, that for a shallow 
> nature to aquire power would be dangerous.
> > Therefore, I kept finding myself being attracted back to 
> HPB's writings, along with Patanjali, the Dalai Lama, and other 
> insightful Buddhist thinkers like Santideva, who deal in ethical 
> growth along side, but actually preceding, the metaphysical study, 
> for the sake of psychological balance. Their motive is service as 
> the key to finding out who you are and your capacities, while an 
> unbalanced study may still allow for selfishness, and misuse of 
> knowledge.
> > Well, thats the Path of study for me, but it came about 
> through an open study of pretty much everything.
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> > Vincent wrote:
> > Steve-
> > 
> > Actually, my primary intent for recently getting involved with 
the 
> > Theosophical Society of Wheaton has mostly to do with having a 
> place 
> > wherein I may freely believe what I already do, and learn new 
> things 
> > of a metaphysical content as well.
> > 
> > When I was formerly involved with Christian fundamentalist 
> churches, 
> > I found myself judged and restricted whenever attempting to 
bring 
> up 
> > metaphysical concepts in open discussion format. I was told that 
I 
> > was not being 'doctrinal', and that my metaphysical experiences 
> > were 'demonic', insofar as they were not strictly aligned with 
> > Christian doctrine.
> > 
> > However, my initial impression of the Theosophical Society is 
that 
> > it is accepting of a variety of religious traditions, and not 
> solely 
> > specific to HPB's writings. It is more wholistic. Please correct 
> > me if I am wrong on this.
> > 
> > Vince
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey wrote:
> > >
> > > Ah Vince, that's a mighty deep rational you have for what you 
> do. 
> > Hopefully you will get from us exactly what you aught.
> > > 
> > > Steve
> > > 
> > > Vincent wrote:
> > > Steve-
> > > 
> > > I appreciate your insight and your suggestion, and I see the 
> value 
> > > to it. It's just that at this specific time in my life, my 
focus 
> > > must be a little bit different. In other words, I've already 
> > poured 
> > > many thousands of hours into various metaphysical texts over 
the 
> > > last twenty years, and have therefore arrived at a very 
complex 
> > and 
> > > advanced metaphysical belief system as a result. At this time, 
I 
> > am 
> > > undertaking the attempt to write a volume as large as HPB's, 
and 
> > > therefore cannot dedicate fully researching a brand new text.
> > > 
> > > I suggest that there exist the roles of teachers whose 
specific 
> > task 
> > > is to dispense information to others, if they do not have the 
> > > immediate time and energy to gather it for themselves. I'm not 
> > > saying that direct readings of HPB lack value in any way. 
That's 
> > > just not where I'm at right now.
> > > 
> > > Currently, I engage in trance conditioning through natural 
> > > physiological disciplines, without the use of chemical 
> modifiers. 
> > > This means that I interact directly with spirit entities, 
seeing 
> > > them and hearing them when I enter into trance. And this is 
the 
> > > level from whence my writings will manifest inspiration. I am 
> just 
> > > curious to see what degree of alignment exists between HPB's 
> > > writings and my own belief system at this time, so I'd like to 
> > learn 
> > > more through those gifted teachers and students of HPB.
> > > 
> > > Vince
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Vince
> > > > 
> > > > I am aware of how daunting the very thickness of these 
> > > texts can appear, but I really think that you are doing 
yourself 
> a 
> > > great disservice, by not doing the study yourself, and 
expecting 
> > > others to, sort of, hand it to you in some palatable form 
> intended 
> > > just for you. This is a great deal like going to church or 
> temple 
> > > and expecting the paid servent on the pulpit to do the same 
> thing. 
> > > > Now please, don't take this wrong, but an important aspect 
> > > of the philosophy of becoming a discriminating human being and 
> > > student, is, so that what you find for yourself will be 
> something 
> > > you can trust in. "We are all Gods", says the ancient wisdom, 
> > > or "You too can do what I have done" as Jesus says. In other 
> > words, 
> > > we have what we need within us, we just have to flesh it out. 
> That 
> > > is the purpose of theosophical thought, not the memorization 
of 
> > > thick texts. But the study of them, and application of what we 
> see 
> > > as true, brings rewards immediately, as the mind wakes up to 
its 
> > own 
> > > powers of wisdom and discrimination.
> > > > 
> > > > Steve
> > > > 
> > > > Vincent wrote:
> > > > Steve-
> > > > 
> > > > I'm just trying to understand what I can about Theosophy, 
> > insofar 
> > > as 
> > > > it is new to me. HPB's writings are so extensive in such 
large 
> > > > volumes that I'm honestly a little bit daunted as to where 
to 
> > > begin, 
> > > > so I'm likely going to be relying on secondary abridgments 
for 
> > > > awhile. In other words, someone's probably going to have to 
> > teach 
> > > > it to me in the form of abridged quotes, before I get into 
> > > extensive 
> > > > reading of the core volumes.
> > > > 
> > > > Christians claim that the Bible contains 'absolute truth', 
> both 
> > > > inerrant and infallible. But this then leaves those portions 
> of 
> > > > universal truth concerning which we lack a firm and total 
> grasp. 
> > > > Namely 'occult' truth, or anything which has not been 
declared 
> > to 
> > > > be 'absolute truth' by the Christian community. Hence 
> universal 
> > > > truth may potentially be subdivided into categories 
> of 'absolute 
> > > > truth' and 'occult truth'. Of course, I don't believe that 
any 
> > of 
> > > > us really has a firm grasp on 'absolute truth' in the first 
> > place, 
> > > > insofar as our minds are mortal, and we commonly have errors 
> > > > somewhere in every belief that we hold, whether small or 
> great. 
> > > > Hence so many different biblical interpretations among 
> > Christians.
> > > > 
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Vince-
> > > > > 
> > > > > Your intution about the reason for the term "Secret" in 
The 
> > > > Secret Doctrine is somewhat correct, but, it is also a bit 
to 
> > > quick 
> > > > a judgement. I'm afraid you are going to have to study the 
> > thing, 
> > > to 
> > > > get a really good idea about the use of her terms. However, 
in 
> > > doing 
> > > > so, I found it wise to read HPB in a thorough way to begin 
to 
> > > > undestand her motivation. By this I mean, read The Key to 
> > > Theosophy, 
> > > > and study The Voice of the Silence, as well, or something 
like 
> > > that. 
> > > > Or, pick up one of her collected writtings of shorter 
> articles, 
> > or 
> > > > the Panarion. Mostly all of these are available at the 
Public 
> > > > Library, but definately on-line or in Theosophy Lodges of 
> > > different 
> > > > types.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Good Searching-Steve
> > > > > 
> > > > > Vincent Blazina wrote:
> > > > > Perry:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks for the welcome. The Jehovah's Witnesses that you 
> refer 
> > > > also seem to have some narrow biblical interpretations, much 
> > like 
> > > > Christian fundamentalists. I'm curious about what some of 
the 
> > > > similarities and differences are between the Bible and the 
> > Secret 
> > > > Doctrine. Why is the Secret Doctrine considered to be 
secret? 
> > Does 
> > > > this simply mean that it is occult (meaning hidden) in 
nature? 
> > My 
> > > > own biblical interpretations go very deep for me, and are 
> > anything 
> > > > but dry, although I view Christian fundamentalists as often 
> > > shallow 
> > > > in their own biblical interpretations much of the time.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Vince
> > > > > 
> > > > > plcoles1 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > Hello Vince, 
> > > > > Welcome to theos-talk!
> > > > > My background was in the Jehovah's Witnesses and so as a 
> > result 
> > > > had what amounted to at 
> > > > > least 5 1/2 hours a week of meetings to attend, and NO 
> > > questioning 
> > > > what you were being 
> > > > > told.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The thing I've found with studying theosophy for someone 
who 
> > has 
> > > > studied the Bible is 
> > > > > that theosophy and in particular the Secret Doctrine opens 
> up 
> > > many 
> > > > interesting and 
> > > > > profound interpretations of passages in the Bible.
> > > > > 
> > > > > An interesting article written by H.P Blavatsky is `The 
> > Esoteric 
> > > > character of the Gospels'
> > > > > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-sio/sio-eso2.htm
> > > > > It's a good place to start as the Secret Doctrine can be a 
> > > little 
> > > > bit daunting to begin with.
> > > > > 
> > > > > After only hearing what was to me very empty and dry 
> > > > interpretations of the Bible, 
> > > > > theosophy can help you to begin to get some kind of 
> > > understanding 
> > > > as to the deeper 
> > > > > meaning in the bible as well as what other great thinkers, 
> > sages 
> > > > and philosophers from 
> > > > > various traditions have taught on these subjects which may 
> > help 
> > > > you have some context 
> > > > > and reference point for your own experiences.
> > > > > Very Best Wishes on your Spiritual journey and once again 
> > > Welcome 
> > > > to the theos-talk!
> > > > > 
> > > > > Regards
> > > > > 
> > > > > Perry
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "vblaz20042004" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi there, I'm Vince and I am new to the group. I have 
> > recently 
> > > > been 
> > > > > > attending the Theosophical Society of Wheaton, Illinois 
> for 
> > > the 
> > > > past 
> > > > > > month, and have been enjoying the various teachings and 
> > > > discussions 
> > > > > > at that facility.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > My life has been rich with metaphysical experiences, but 
> the 
> > > > > > Christian Fundamentalist churches that I had previously 
> > > attended 
> > > > for 
> > > > > > twenty years got very judgmental towards me when I might 
> > > venture 
> > > > to 
> > > > > > reference them. I also began finding many 
inconsistencies 
> > with 
> > > > the 
> > > > > > way that many Christians were representing the Bible, 
and 
> my 
> > > > > > questions about Christianity were often deemed dangerous 
> to 
> > > > people's 
> > > > > > religious faith.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I am looking for a place in the Theosophical Society 
> wherein 
> > I 
> > > > may 
> > > > > > potentially freely discuss metaphysical issues as they 
> > > directly 
> > > > > > pertain to my life, with people who are more open to 
such 
> > > > > > discussions. I am very well read with the Bible, 
although 
> my 
> > > > > > interpretations of it are more metaphysical versus 
> orthodox.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I look forward to constuctive discussion with the people 
> > here, 
> > > > and 
> > > > > > would like to learn more about the Theosophical Society 
> and 
> > > it's 
> > > > > > perspectives, insofar as many of them are brand new to 
me.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Thank you,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Vince
> > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
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