Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt00851)

I see it differently, HPB's legitimacy comes through her works not through her actions.  Paul has concentrated on aspects of her personality.  Einstein was the greatest philanderer of his time (which must have involved lying) and a chauvinist (wives are for washing shirts) but that doesn't mean that his contribution to science wasn't remarkable.

Continuing the debate with Paul only adds fuel and probably provides material for his next book on Theosophists that follow Blavatsky!  I take your point that Paul is of the opinion that HPB was a liar but fails to see IMO that  the Coloumbs and Soloviof had more motive to lie, as you said for public notariety and commissions for selling their stories.   A double standard on Paul's part, which he has not addressed, as to do so would be to provide evidence to suggest that the Coloumbs and Soloviofs were not lying, and all he has presented is hearsay, their word against HPB's.  What did they contribute to the benefit of mankind?

Cheers, Cass



carlosaveline cardoso aveline <carlosaveline@hotmail.com> wrote: 

Dear Cass,

If someone ask you "How are you", and you answer, "Fine, thanks", even if 
you have a bad cold and are in a bad mood, that is a lie.

This is no the point. We are not talking about innocent lies.

The point is: "Was HPB a legitimate person? Was she capable of fraud? Was 
she a truthful person, an honest woman?"

Paul Johnson, who is not a theosophist, but a member of some Church (and HPB 
  fought most Churches), says HPB was a liar, and presents no proofs.

His sources are the Coulombs and Soloviof, that is, he has no sources at 
all, so much so that he doesn't even makes his points clear and disguises 
his own positions.

When asked to clarify, he goes away making believe he feels offended.  He is 
in line with John Algeo, Katinka Hesserlink, Daniel Caldwell, and other.

You may know that slandering famous people in books is a pathway to some 
kind of notoriety.
V. Soloviof had his "passaport to fame" speaking evil of HPB. Judas is 
talked about even today.

Get my point? And these "Historians" ignore the SPR self-criticism of 1986!

Best regards,  Carlos.








>From: Cass Silva 
>Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: Theos-World TO CASS ON DEFENDING HPB'S WORK
>Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 19:19:22 -0800 (PST)
>
>Hello Carlos
>My point was that we must not hold on to our "ideas" as being "truths".  
>What PJ wrote about HPB is only his ideas on what he believes to be the 
>truth, and, I am sure that there is a certain truthful aspect within his 
>ideas.  However, it is like looking at a small piece of cloth and imagining 
>it is the quilt.
>
>Your ideas are supporting your truths in relation to the claim that HPB was 
>not a liar, even though she and the masters have stated that under certain 
>circumstances a lie will be used to protect others.  However, I would like 
>to add that these  lies cannot be found in the actual teachings, be that 
>exoteric or esoteric.
>
>  I have found nothing stating that the integrity of either HPB or the 
>Masters needs be defended as a moral or virtuous act of any theosophist, 
>although I admire your loyalty.  I do admit that when anyone slanders HPB, 
>the hairs on the back of my neck stiffen, however, everyone is free to 
>believe whatever they so chose to believe.  Flapdoodle comes to mind!
>
>Cheers
>Cass
>
>
>carlosaveline cardoso aveline  wrote:
>Cass,
>
>I don't disagree but I couldn't understand what exactly your point is,
>below.
>
>My reason for defending what I consider to be the truth about HPB's work is
>that her  work is useful to, and BADLY NEEDED BY,  humanity right now.
>
>There is no other practical reason for that --  of which I can remember
>right now.
>
>And I am open to examine new evidences, as I am also examining the false
>ideas and sometimes the utter lies about HPB's work.
>
>Best regards,   Carlos.
>
> >From: Cass Silva
> >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: WHEN TRUTH IS A LIE
> >Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:05:52 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >Carlos, Vladmimir
> >Didn't someone post an article by HPB on the mind which stated that we 
>may
> >believe at a particular point in time that our ideas are "truths" but in
> >fact as we are continually learning our ideas are continually changing, 
>and
> >those once thought of truths in fact become untruths in hindsight.  The
> >problem arises when we embrace a particular idea as the absolute truth 
>and
> >refuse to let go of the idea that once what I thought was the truth was 
>but
> >a partial glimmer of absolute truth.
> >
> >My solution for this is to take the attitude that all truths are 
>"definite
> >maybe's" until I am proved ignorant in abscentia.
> >
> >Although Steve's opinion is that Devachan is a subjective existence, 
>which
> >I acknowledge, I am of the opinion that any idea we take with us will be
> >mulled over for centuries, and as there are masters incarnate there are
> >masters disincarnate who are available in devachan to direct and assist 
>us.
> >  I am quite certain that a disincarnate master, a plato, etc would not
> >disturb anyone who is mulling over whether HPB was a charletan or not!
> >
> >Cass
> >
> >carlosaveline cardoso aveline  wrote:
> >
> >Vladimir,
> >
> >Thanks (see below).
> >
> >I try not to be merciless with people.
> >
> >But I believe in an open and frank debate.
> >
> >One of the lessons we have to learn-and-teach to each other  in the
> >theosophical movement is that
> >we are NOT our ideas.  It is a lesson of detachment, or vairagya.  This 
>is
> >a
> >quality of fundamental importance for truth-seekers.
> >
> >People who think they are their ideas will get "personally offended "
> >whenever  their ideas are
> >questioned, or when they are shown to be false.
> >
> >Now, is this "scholarly"?
> >
> >Best regards, Carlos.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Vladimir
> > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: carlosaveline cardoso aveline
> > >Subject: Re: Theos-World Why Does Paul Unsubscribe?
> > >Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 22:34:02 +0300
> > >
> > >Monday, March 13, 2006, 9:39:16 PM, carlosaveline wrote:
> > >
> > > > Once  confronted  with  his  own  words,  and  with  the  completely
> > > > groundless  condition  of  his  "veiled"  accusations  against  HPB,
> > > > instead  of  facing  the  facts,  Paul  Johnson  tries  to adopt the
> > > > position  of  a  poor  defenceless  victim -- and gets away from the
> > > > debate.
> > >
> > >Oh,  c'mon,  have  mercy  on your brother, lest he deserts you forever
> > >leaving  us  wandering  about  in  woe  and  despair  longing  for his
> > >enlightening and mind-widening maybes and whatifs.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
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