Theos-Talk Archives (February 2006 Message tt00741)

hahahahahahah.  You've got me Superman, whose got you!!
Cass

carlosaveline cardoso aveline <carlosaveline@hotmail.com> wrote: 

Dave,

Yes, CWL was declared an ADEPT by A. Besant in AUGUST 1925
and did not deny that announcement. Rightful source:  Mary Lutyens's books.

As to CWL's  habit of fancy-talking to "Lord Christ",  see "The Elder 
Brother", by Gregory
Tillett, pp.  172-173-174.

It's very well-documented.

And go to Adyar, get access to the old and too dusty archives of the 
Esoteric School for the years 1900-1930 (not the Esoteric Library).

Much fun, Dave, with the crazy descriptions by CWL of his pseudo-meetings 
with
the "Lord Christ".


Best  regards, Carlos.


>From: "soulsurvivor7771" 

>Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Theos-World Re: CWL and  the"Collective Adepthood"
>Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:14:06 -0000
>
>Carlos,
>
>You have done it again. While saying that you do not mean CWL
>believed he was an Adept, you continue on to say 'he fancied himself
>a fourth degree initiate'. I am not sure what the difference is, but
>whatever the difference, CWL never made either of these claims and
>you have no evidence to support that he did it. (By the way, how do
>you know he was not a disciple? Do you claim to have contact with
>some Master from whom you got this information?)
>
>As for his being silent publicly about the episode, he was too polite
>a person to contradict in public Annie Besant whom he respected and
>he also did not wish to split the society any further. However, to
>anyone who questioned him in private (like Krishmurthi or Lutyens),
>he did not hesitate to say that he did not consider himself an Adept.
>
>Since we have this information from Lutyens, I don't see any reason
>for you to accuse him of being part of this 'Collective Adepthood' -
>your real aim is to discredit his writings by making such an
>accusation.
>
>Regards,
>
>Dave
>
>--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline"
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Dave,
> >
> >
> > Thanks, again (see below).
> >
> > I never said CWL believed or announced he was an Adept.
> >
> > He only fancied, it seems, to have the fourth great initiation,
>while in
> > fact he was no disciple any longer,  was never a member of HPB's
>Esoteric
> > School, and started his fancies about discipleship and clairvoyance
>in the
> > inner circle of Mr. Sinnett during mediumnistic s�ances in London.
> >
> > CWL was involved in the "Collective Adepthood" announcement made by
>Mrs. A.
> > Besant not because he believed that, but because his name was
>included among
> > the false "ADEPTS".
> >
> > He REMAINED involved in the episode because he kept quiet and did
>not
> > publically explain that he was not an ADEPT.
> >
> > If, say,   someone announces that you are an ADEPT, Dave, and you
>do not
> > clearly explain you are NOT, you remain involved in the episode.
> >
> >
> > Best regards,   Carlos.
> >
> >
> > ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> >
> >
> > >From: "soulsurvivor7771" 

> > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: Theos-World Re: Daniel,  Dave and Besant's Adepthood
> > >Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:34:31 -0000
> > >
> > >Carlos,
> > >
> > >I am not suggesting that the episode did not occur or that Annie
> > >Besant did not announce that she and others had attained Adepthood
>(I
> > >believe it was the fourth initiation she claimed).
> > >
> > >All I am saying is that CW Leadbeater had nothing to do with it.
>(If
> > >Besant claimed that Leadbeater was also an Adept, that is not his
> > >fault). Besant was really getting senile at that time, so I
> > >personally think, she can be forgiven (not so Arundell).
> > >
> > >If Mary Lutyens told you privately that CWL was involved in the
> > >episode, we only have your word for it (and you seem to have an axe
> > >to grind).
> > >
> > >If she wrote it somewhere, I would like the reference.
> > >
> > >I have read specifically that CWL was not involved in the episode
>and
> > >that he told Krishnamurthi that as far as he knew, Krishnamurthi
>was
> > >the only Adept around at that time. I read this either in one of
>Mary
> > >Lutyens books or maybe in Radha Sloss's book (neither of whom would
> > >want to defend CWL particularly).
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >
> > >Dave
> > >
> > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dave,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you very much for your stimulating posting.
> > > >
> > > > I see there seems to be an inner identity between your views and
> > >the views
> > > > of other persons with the same initial letter in their names:
> > >David (Green)
> > > > and Daniel (Caldwell). By some sort of coincidence, you came in
>the
> > >debate
> > > > immediately after Daniel's "disappearance".  Friends in need,
> > >friends
> > > > indeed?  I respect that. There is something sacred about
>friendship.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps you can convince  Daniel Caldwell, or David Green, to
> > >explain
> > > > whether David Green was, or not, invented  as a false person by
> > >Daniel
> > > > Caldwell.
> > > >
> > > > As you know, truthfulness is really important, isn't it?  I will
> > >rely on you
> > > > in that. Paul Johnson's texts on Daniel's possible "secret agent
> > >work" to
> > > > cause harm to theosophical groups remain unanswered and
> > >unchallenged so far,
> > > > which is not good for  Daniel. He should clarify facts out of
> > >respect for
> > > > all of us,  here at Theos-Talk.
> > > >
> > > > Let's see now the connection between Annie Besant's "Adepthood"
>and
> > > > Arundale's, and
> > > > Wedgwood's, and Leadbeater's.
> > > >
> > > > Well, Mary Lutyens  (a historian, not a pseudonym) is the
>source of
> > >that
> > > > information and her books were not contradicted by  leaders or
> > > > thinkers/historians  at Adyar.
> > > >
> > > > It was Mary Lutiens who narrated the episode. Not me.
> > > >
> > > > Annie Besant, in August 1925, humbly announced she had attained
>the
> > >FIFTH
> > > > GREAT
> > > > INITIATION and included several others in the annoncement,
> > >including
> > > > Arundale, Leadbeater and Wedgwood.
> > > >
> > > > Crazy years those were, in which a few "initiates" went mad soon
> > >after
> > > > attaining Adepthood.
> > > >
> > > > Your commentaries?
> > > >
> > > > Dear Dave, I hope you help us find the truth about the history
>of
> > >the
> > > > theosophical moment,
> > > > so that we can move on and far beyond all this network of lies
>and
> > > > illusions.  I am sure you can help us in that. You see, it's
>never
> > >late.  If
> > > > you are a friend of Mr. John Algeo's, why not telling him he is
> > >still in
> > > > time to change for the better?
> > > >
> > > > Law of Karma is on the side of Truth Eternal!   And there is
> > >nothing outside
> > > > Karma Law.
> > > >
> > > > Peace to all beings,
> > > >
> > > > Best & fraternal  regards,   Carlos.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: "soulsurvivor7771" 

> > > > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >Subject: Theos-World Re: The Origin of Annie Besant's Adepthood
> > > > >Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 15:54:33 -0000
> > > > >
> > > > >Senor Carlos is at it again. This time he is trying to
>discredit
> > >CWL
> > > > >by insinuating that CWL had something to do with Annie
> > > > >Besant's 'Adepthood' announcement - that CWL was really
> > >the 'Origin'.
> > > > >
> > > > >In fact, Leadbeater had nothing to do with it at all. The
>Adepthood
> > > > >story was concocted by George Arundell while Leadbeater was in
> > > > >Australia. George may have thought it up himself or got it from
> > >this
> > > > >Wedgwood person. In any case, Leadbeater did not believe the
>story.
> > > > >When Krishnamurthi questioned him about it, Leadbeater said
>(in so
> > > > >many words) that Krishnamurthi was the only Arhat he was aware
>of
> > > > >(that Krishnamurthi was indeed an Arhat has been confirmed by
> > >others).
> > > > >
> > > > >To suggest that CWL was somehow responsible for this sorry
>episode
> > >is
> > > > >spreading lies about someone who has done a lot to advance the
> > >cause
> > > > >of Theosophy albeit by unconventional means. Mr. Carlos needs
>to
> > >read
> > > > >his sources more carefully and stop making connections (between
> > > > >Leadbeater and Arundell's Adepthood) that don't exist.
> > > > >
> > > > >Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > >Dave
> > > > >
> > > > >(I had better get out of here quick, Mr Psionics is coming
>after
> > >me :-
> > > > >))
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso
>aveline"
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > FRIENDS,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > below, a letter to a fellow truth-seeker whow wrote to me
> > > > >complaining
> > > > > > about the significant number of controversies in the
> > >Theosophical
> > > > >Movement.
> > > > > > Carlos.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear  Friend,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Brotherly friendship and understanding need freedom and
> > >diversity.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is important that you read Letter 120, Mahatma Letters,
> > > > >Chronological
> > > > > > Edition, on the London Lodge Crisis. (I do not remember the
> > >Letter
> > > > >number in
> > > > > > non-cronological editions).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It was written by a Mahatma after consulting with his own
>Master
> > > > >about
> > > > > > theosophical controversies.  The essence of the Letter  is
>that,
> > > > >according
> > > > > > to the Masters,  the contrast of views and opinions,
> > > > > > once they are sincere, must be freely exercized and even
> > >preserved
> > > > >from
> > > > > > hypocritical make-belief and outer harmony.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It coincides with a famous poem written by English poet
> > >Alexander
> > > > >Pope,
> > > > > > which says (and I quote the idea, no the words themselves):
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Every disharmony is a harmony that you cannot understand
>yet".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So true harmony will never emerge from repressing diversity
>and
> > > > >true
> > > > > > contrast in nature.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thought monoculture is as disastrous as agricultural
> > >monoculture.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thought diversity in the mind world is as important as
> > >biodiversity
> > > > >in
> > > > > > natural environment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The great treason, conscious or unconscious, promoted by CWL
> > >and A.
> > > > >Besant
> > > > > > against the
> > > > > > HPB Mission (a Mission, by the way,  which is NOT limited
>to the
> > > > >19th
> > > > > > century) was to create rituals as a way of establishing an
> > > > >uniformity of
> > > > > > thought under their own popish control.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now, there is a difference between contrast, frankness,
> > >dversity,
> > > > >and
> > > > > > hatred, enmity and the like.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is by puting on the table and freely examining the
>failures
> > >of
> > > > >the
> > > > > > movement as a whole (and
> > > > > > occultly Adyar is NOT separated from the rest of the
>movement),
> > > > >that we will
> > > > > > gradually eliminate all bitter feelings among us.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I do not have access to Internet from my Library, but I can
>tell
> > > > >tomorrow
> > > > > > you the number of the Letter 120 in the other editions of
>the
> > > > >Mahatma
> > > > > > Letters. Tell me if you want that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And, by the way, if you study the M.  Letters you will see
>that
> > > > >CWL's
> > > > > > writings have nothing to see
> > > > > > with the Mahatmas' teachings.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > AND  --- do you happen to know that CWL was never admitted
>to
> > >the
> > > > >Esoteric
> > > > > > School founded by H.P.B.?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > He received a couple of letters from the Mahatmas, yes, but
> > >soon he
> > > > >was out
> > > > > > of focus. He never was admitted to the HPB's inner school.
> > > > >Instead, he was
> > > > > > busy having mediumnistic "chats" with imaginary Masters  in
> > > > >the 'inner
> > > > > > circle' of Mr. A. P. Sinnett, in London.  A. Besant also
>took
> > >part,
> > > > >there,
> > > > > > right after HPB's death.  (See Mr. A.P. Sinnett Memoirs.)
>And
> > >soon
> > > > >the
> > > > > > nonsense began.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Then CWL became the source of Mrs. A.Besant "contact" with
>her
> > >own
> > > > >imaginary
> > > > > > Masters.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It was in this way that Besant finnally anounced, in 1925
>that
> > >she
> > > > >had
> > > > > > attained Adepthood, as
> > > > > > I have documented here while illustrating the life of Mr.
>James
> > > > >Wedgwood,
> > > > > > the founder of the Liberal Catholic Church and another
> > > > >Adyar "Adept" in
> > > > > > 1925.   The inquestionable source is Mary Lutyens, J.
> > > > >Krishnamurti's
> > > > > > biographer.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's History.  These are documented facts. As a source, A.P.
> > > > >Sinnett was
> > > > > > never questioned.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > He was international vice-president under Annie Besant, and
> > >close
> > > > >friends
> > > > > > with CWL and her until he died.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have all the data and can bring them all here to you.  I
> > >believe
> > > > >it is
> > > > > > indeed important that we
> > > > > > understand the origin of all the "clairvoyant" fancies in
>order
> > >to
> > > > > > understand them and then to GET RID OF THEM.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope you have the patience to stand the "ugly truths" we
>must
> > > > >accept,
> > > > > > examine and learn from, in order to go ahead to the next
>step.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best regards,  Carlos Cardoso Aveline
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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