Theos-Talk Archives (February 2006 Message tt00716)

Carlos,

CWL did deny the 1925 Adepthood declaration by Annie Besant to more 
than one person in private, that is good enough for me.

Actually, I meant something written by Leadbeater himself (not 
second hand through Tilett's book). CWL has written so many volumes, 
wouldn't he have mentioned in one of them about communication with 
the Christ? Also, if he did make such claim, such communication is 
not impossible for very spiritual people (I don't know about you 
Carlos, but highly unlikely for me in this lifetime). 

I never said CWL was 100% accurate, but what he wrote was truth as 
he saw it (and I believe there is a lot of truth in it).

Regards,

Dave

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Dave,
> 
> Yes, CWL was declared an ADEPT by A. Besant in AUGUST 1925
> and did not deny that announcement. Rightful source:  Mary 
Lutyens's books.
> 
> As to CWL's  habit of fancy-talking to "Lord Christ",  see "The 
Elder 
> Brother", by Gregory
> Tillett, pp.  172-173-174.
> 
> It's very well-documented.
> 
> And go to Adyar, get access to the old and too dusty archives of 
the 
> Esoteric School for the years 1900-1930 (not the Esoteric Library).
> 
> Much fun, Dave, with the crazy descriptions by CWL of his pseudo-
meetings 
> with
> the "Lord Christ".
> 
> 
> Best  regards, Carlos.
> 
> 
> >From: "soulsurvivor7771" <pathinfo@...>
> >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Theos-World Re: CWL and  the"Collective Adepthood"
> >Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:14:06 -0000
> >
> >Carlos,
> >
> >You have done it again. While saying that you do not mean CWL
> >believed he was an Adept, you continue on to say 'he fancied 
himself
> >a fourth degree initiate'. I am not sure what the difference is, 
but
> >whatever the difference, CWL never made either of these claims and
> >you have no evidence to support that he did it. (By the way, how 
do
> >you know he was not a disciple? Do you claim to have contact with
> >some Master from whom you got this information?)
> >
> >As for his being silent publicly about the episode, he was too 
polite
> >a person to contradict in public Annie Besant whom he respected 
and
> >he also did not wish to split the society any further. However, to
> >anyone who questioned him in private (like Krishmurthi or 
Lutyens),
> >he did not hesitate to say that he did not consider himself an 
Adept.
> >
> >Since we have this information from Lutyens, I don't see any 
reason
> >for you to accuse him of being part of this 'Collective 
Adepthood' -
> >your real aim is to discredit his writings by making such an
> >accusation.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline"
> ><carlosaveline@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dave,
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks, again (see below).
> > >
> > > I never said CWL believed or announced he was an Adept.
> > >
> > > He only fancied, it seems, to have the fourth great initiation,
> >while in
> > > fact he was no disciple any longer,  was never a member of 
HPB's
> >Esoteric
> > > School, and started his fancies about discipleship and 
clairvoyance
> >in the
> > > inner circle of Mr. Sinnett during mediumnistic séances in 
London.
> > >
> > > CWL was involved in the "Collective Adepthood" announcement 
made by
> >Mrs. A.
> > > Besant not because he believed that, but because his name was
> >included among
> > > the false "ADEPTS".
> > >
> > > He REMAINED involved in the episode because he kept quiet and 
did
> >not
> > > publically explain that he was not an ADEPT.
> > >
> > > If, say,   someone announces that you are an ADEPT, Dave, and 
you
> >do not
> > > clearly explain you are NOT, you remain involved in the 
episode.
> > >
> > >
> > > Best regards,   Carlos.
> > >
> > >
> > > ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "soulsurvivor7771" <pathinfo@>
> > > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > >Subject: Theos-World Re: Daniel,  Dave and Besant's Adepthood
> > > >Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:34:31 -0000
> > > >
> > > >Carlos,
> > > >
> > > >I am not suggesting that the episode did not occur or that 
Annie
> > > >Besant did not announce that she and others had attained 
Adepthood
> >(I
> > > >believe it was the fourth initiation she claimed).
> > > >
> > > >All I am saying is that CW Leadbeater had nothing to do with 
it.
> >(If
> > > >Besant claimed that Leadbeater was also an Adept, that is not 
his
> > > >fault). Besant was really getting senile at that time, so I
> > > >personally think, she can be forgiven (not so Arundell).
> > > >
> > > >If Mary Lutyens told you privately that CWL was involved in 
the
> > > >episode, we only have your word for it (and you seem to have 
an axe
> > > >to grind).
> > > >
> > > >If she wrote it somewhere, I would like the reference.
> > > >
> > > >I have read specifically that CWL was not involved in the 
episode
> >and
> > > >that he told Krishnamurthi that as far as he knew, 
Krishnamurthi
> >was
> > > >the only Adept around at that time. I read this either in one 
of
> >Mary
> > > >Lutyens books or maybe in Radha Sloss's book (neither of whom 
would
> > > >want to defend CWL particularly).
> > > >
> > > >Regards,
> > > >
> > > >Dave
> > > >
> > > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso 
aveline"
> > > ><carlosaveline@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dave,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you very much for your stimulating posting.
> > > > >
> > > > > I see there seems to be an inner identity between your 
views and
> > > >the views
> > > > > of other persons with the same initial letter in their 
names:
> > > >David (Green)
> > > > > and Daniel (Caldwell). By some sort of coincidence, you 
came in
> >the
> > > >debate
> > > > > immediately after Daniel's "disappearance".  Friends in 
need,
> > > >friends
> > > > > indeed?  I respect that. There is something sacred about
> >friendship.
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps you can convince  Daniel Caldwell, or David Green, 
to
> > > >explain
> > > > > whether David Green was, or not, invented  as a false 
person by
> > > >Daniel
> > > > > Caldwell.
> > > > >
> > > > > As you know, truthfulness is really important, isn't it?  
I will
> > > >rely on you
> > > > > in that. Paul Johnson's texts on Daniel's possible "secret 
agent
> > > >work" to
> > > > > cause harm to theosophical groups remain unanswered and
> > > >unchallenged so far,
> > > > > which is not good for  Daniel. He should clarify facts out 
of
> > > >respect for
> > > > > all of us,  here at Theos-Talk.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let's see now the connection between Annie 
Besant's "Adepthood"
> >and
> > > > > Arundale's, and
> > > > > Wedgwood's, and Leadbeater's.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, Mary Lutyens  (a historian, not a pseudonym) is the
> >source of
> > > >that
> > > > > information and her books were not contradicted by  
leaders or
> > > > > thinkers/historians  at Adyar.
> > > > >
> > > > > It was Mary Lutiens who narrated the episode. Not me.
> > > > >
> > > > > Annie Besant, in August 1925, humbly announced she had 
attained
> >the
> > > >FIFTH
> > > > > GREAT
> > > > > INITIATION and included several others in the annoncement,
> > > >including
> > > > > Arundale, Leadbeater and Wedgwood.
> > > > >
> > > > > Crazy years those were, in which a few "initiates" went 
mad soon
> > > >after
> > > > > attaining Adepthood.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your commentaries?
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Dave, I hope you help us find the truth about the 
history
> >of
> > > >the
> > > > > theosophical moment,
> > > > > so that we can move on and far beyond all this network of 
lies
> >and
> > > > > illusions.  I am sure you can help us in that. You see, 
it's
> >never
> > > >late.  If
> > > > > you are a friend of Mr. John Algeo's, why not telling him 
he is
> > > >still in
> > > > > time to change for the better?
> > > > >
> > > > > Law of Karma is on the side of Truth Eternal!   And there 
is
> > > >nothing outside
> > > > > Karma Law.
> > > > >
> > > > > Peace to all beings,
> > > > >
> > > > > Best & fraternal  regards,   Carlos.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "soulsurvivor7771" <pathinfo@>
> > > > > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >Subject: Theos-World Re: The Origin of Annie Besant's 
Adepthood
> > > > > >Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 15:54:33 -0000
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Senor Carlos is at it again. This time he is trying to
> >discredit
> > > >CWL
> > > > > >by insinuating that CWL had something to do with Annie
> > > > > >Besant's 'Adepthood' announcement - that CWL was really
> > > >the 'Origin'.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >In fact, Leadbeater had nothing to do with it at all. The
> >Adepthood
> > > > > >story was concocted by George Arundell while Leadbeater 
was in
> > > > > >Australia. George may have thought it up himself or got 
it from
> > > >this
> > > > > >Wedgwood person. In any case, Leadbeater did not believe 
the
> >story.
> > > > > >When Krishnamurthi questioned him about it, Leadbeater 
said
> >(in so
> > > > > >many words) that Krishnamurthi was the only Arhat he was 
aware
> >of
> > > > > >(that Krishnamurthi was indeed an Arhat has been 
confirmed by
> > > >others).
> > > > > >
> > > > > >To suggest that CWL was somehow responsible for this sorry
> >episode
> > > >is
> > > > > >spreading lies about someone who has done a lot to 
advance the
> > > >cause
> > > > > >of Theosophy albeit by unconventional means. Mr. Carlos 
needs
> >to
> > > >read
> > > > > >his sources more carefully and stop making connections 
(between
> > > > > >Leadbeater and Arundell's Adepthood) that don't exist.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Dave
> > > > > >
> > > > > >(I had better get out of here quick, Mr Psionics is coming
> >after
> > > >me :-
> > > > > >))
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso
> >aveline"
> > > > > ><carlosaveline@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > FRIENDS,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > below, a letter to a fellow truth-seeker whow wrote to 
me
> > > > > >complaining
> > > > > > > about the significant number of controversies in the
> > > >Theosophical
> > > > > >Movement.
> > > > > > > Carlos.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear  Friend,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Brotherly friendship and understanding need freedom and
> > > >diversity.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is important that you read Letter 120, Mahatma 
Letters,
> > > > > >Chronological
> > > > > > > Edition, on the London Lodge Crisis. (I do not 
remember the
> > > >Letter
> > > > > >number in
> > > > > > > non-cronological editions).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It was written by a Mahatma after consulting with his 
own
> >Master
> > > > > >about
> > > > > > > theosophical controversies.  The essence of the 
Letter  is
> >that,
> > > > > >according
> > > > > > > to the Masters,  the contrast of views and opinions,
> > > > > > > once they are sincere, must be freely exercized and 
even
> > > >preserved
> > > > > >from
> > > > > > > hypocritical make-belief and outer harmony.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It coincides with a famous poem written by English poet
> > > >Alexander
> > > > > >Pope,
> > > > > > > which says (and I quote the idea, no the words 
themselves):
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Every disharmony is a harmony that you cannot 
understand
> >yet".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So true harmony will never emerge from repressing 
diversity
> >and
> > > > > >true
> > > > > > > contrast in nature.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thought monoculture is as disastrous as agricultural
> > > >monoculture.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thought diversity in the mind world is as important as
> > > >biodiversity
> > > > > >in
> > > > > > > natural environment.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The great treason, conscious or unconscious, promoted 
by CWL
> > > >and A.
> > > > > >Besant
> > > > > > > against the
> > > > > > > HPB Mission (a Mission, by the way,  which is NOT 
limited
> >to the
> > > > > >19th
> > > > > > > century) was to create rituals as a way of 
establishing an
> > > > > >uniformity of
> > > > > > > thought under their own popish control.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now, there is a difference between contrast, frankness,
> > > >dversity,
> > > > > >and
> > > > > > > hatred, enmity and the like.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is by puting on the table and freely examining the
> >failures
> > > >of
> > > > > >the
> > > > > > > movement as a whole (and
> > > > > > > occultly Adyar is NOT separated from the rest of the
> >movement),
> > > > > >that we will
> > > > > > > gradually eliminate all bitter feelings among us.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I do not have access to Internet from my Library, but 
I can
> >tell
> > > > > >tomorrow
> > > > > > > you the number of the Letter 120 in the other editions 
of
> >the
> > > > > >Mahatma
> > > > > > > Letters. Tell me if you want that.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And, by the way, if you study the M.  Letters you will 
see
> >that
> > > > > >CWL's
> > > > > > > writings have nothing to see
> > > > > > > with the Mahatmas' teachings.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > AND  --- do you happen to know that CWL was never 
admitted
> >to
> > > >the
> > > > > >Esoteric
> > > > > > > School founded by H.P.B.?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He received a couple of letters from the Mahatmas, 
yes, but
> > > >soon he
> > > > > >was out
> > > > > > > of focus. He never was admitted to the HPB's inner 
school.
> > > > > >Instead, he was
> > > > > > > busy having mediumnistic "chats" with imaginary 
Masters  in
> > > > > >the 'inner
> > > > > > > circle' of Mr. A. P. Sinnett, in London.  A. Besant 
also
> >took
> > > >part,
> > > > > >there,
> > > > > > > right after HPB's death.  (See Mr. A.P. Sinnett 
Memoirs.)
> >And
> > > >soon
> > > > > >the
> > > > > > > nonsense began.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Then CWL became the source of Mrs. A.Besant "contact" 
with
> >her
> > > >own
> > > > > >imaginary
> > > > > > > Masters.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It was in this way that Besant finnally anounced, in 
1925
> >that
> > > >she
> > > > > >had
> > > > > > > attained Adepthood, as
> > > > > > > I have documented here while illustrating the life of 
Mr.
> >James
> > > > > >Wedgwood,
> > > > > > > the founder of the Liberal Catholic Church and another
> > > > > >Adyar "Adept" in
> > > > > > > 1925.   The inquestionable source is Mary Lutyens, J.
> > > > > >Krishnamurti's
> > > > > > > biographer.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It's History.  These are documented facts. As a 
source, A.P.
> > > > > >Sinnett was
> > > > > > > never questioned.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He was international vice-president under Annie 
Besant, and
> > > >close
> > > > > >friends
> > > > > > > with CWL and her until he died.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have all the data and can bring them all here to 
you.  I
> > > >believe
> > > > > >it is
> > > > > > > indeed important that we
> > > > > > > understand the origin of all the "clairvoyant" fancies 
in
> >order
> > > >to
> > > > > > > understand them and then to GET RID OF THEM.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I hope you have the patience to stand the "ugly 
truths" we
> >must
> > > > > >accept,
> > > > > > > examine and learn from, in order to go ahead to the 
next
> >step.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best regards,  Carlos Cardoso Aveline
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > 
>_________________________________________________________________
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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