Theos-Talk Archives (August 2005 Message tt00291)

I think I am on the same page as you Jerry, everyone who came after HPB and the Mahatma letters, should be thought of as interpreters only. e.g. The interpretations of the ancient wisdom by Annie Besant, The interpretations of the ancient wisdom by G de Purucker, etc. A student can then read the source, read the interpretation, and decide for themself where they sit.
Cass 

Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@charter.net> wrote:
Dear Dallas,

>As I wrote, we (or at least I) are not seeking to identify differences, we
>are seeking for the TRUTH -- all of us. In metallurgy (or old alchemy) we
>might say we are seeking for the highest known value: "gold."
>
As for TRUTH, if you mean an ultimate Truth, its very existence is a 
matter of debate. Certain Evangelical faith based groups advocate the 
existence of absolute Truth, and argue that they are the only means to 
it. Personally, I don't believe that the question is answerable one 
way or the other--rather, it is a matter of faith. So, I don't concern 
myself with that question one way or the other. Rather, I am interested 
in those relative truths (knowledge) which can lead to transcendent 
truths (realization). 

As for the gold metaphor: I think that the manner of one's search 
depends upon one's mining techniques. I prefer an historical approach 
to understanding (but also like to use others too). Some prefer a 
phenomenological approach. Others, an essentialist approach and, still 
others, a post-modern approach etc. It appears that you prefer the 
essentialist approach. That seems to work for you. The historical 
approach works for me. 

>Original minted gold coins have been counterfeited after that first casting
>time for ages. But modern science enables us to assay them for their alloys
>and impurities to the extent that a trained assayist can determine from a
>sample the probable age and era of the casting of any coin. He discovers
>when it was most likely cast, and whether the mix (impurities, other metals,
>etc.) has been altered.
>
This is all new to me. I have an interest in ancient coins, and have a 
small collection of them. From all of my reading, they classify, date 
and identify fakes purely by their appearance. I never heard of anyone 
taking a valuable gold coin, and assay it (which would deface or destroy 
the coin) in order to determine this information. 

>I also would say that every human is a Mind and a Free Thinker.
> 
>
Some seem to be freer than others.

>If you will concede me this as a fair basis or "source" then, may we can
>proceed to details that I think are valid.
> 
>
Yes, I gladly concede to you that you have created an excellent summary 
of the source teachings according to your tradition. 

Best wishes,
Jerry







W.Dallas TenBroeck wrote:

>8/25/2005 5:17 PM
>
>Dear Jerry:
>
> Re: "Traditions"
>
>As I wrote, we (or at least I) are not seeking to identify differences, we
>are seeking for the TRUTH -- all of us. In metallurgy (or old alchemy) we
>might say we are seeking for the highest known value: "gold."
>
>What are the rules and laws established by Nature -- to run our Universe,
>our world and our physical and conscious existence, and mental presence? Are
>they not the "gold" of the entire system? 
>
>Are they not, since antiquity, set in place for our support, life and
>well-being? [Not only ours, but that of all other beings, atoms, galaxies,
>etc.] 
>
>Where and how did they evolve? Who guided, devised and set them going? Are
>they impossible to discover? 
>
>Do not Science and Philosophy endeavour to solve those mysteries?
>
>In mathematics, the rules of arithmetic may be seen as the source,
>foundation and basics of the whole system of enumeration -- the enormous
>complexity and measurement (in engineering, chemistry, physics, astronomy,
>etc...) of detail that calculus expresses, is based on UNITY (the ONE) and
>that in turn, may be imagined to radiate or emanate (?) from the
>indescribable ZERO ( 0 ) that some denominate THE ABSOLUTE. 
>
>We recognize intellectually this ONE [that to us is quite indistinct (for it
>is either too large or to small) and, to many, it appears to be devoid of
>qualities] when "manifested into objectivity," becomes the TWO ( 2 ). 
>
>This has been designated a symbol for the countless indivisible (strings -
>?) of ATMA-BUDDHI "monads." The symbolic analogy then proceeds to THREE (3
>) that includes the PERCEIVER or MIND. [ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS] 
>
>Suppose we were numismatists -- coin collectors. Then, we might seek to find
>true and authentic old coins for our collection. Let us take the rarest:
>GOLD.
>
>Original minted gold coins have been counterfeited after that first casting
>time for ages. But modern science enables us to assay them for their alloys
>and impurities to the extent that a trained assayist can determine from a
>sample the probable age and era of the casting of any coin. He discovers
>when it was most likely cast, and whether the mix (impurities, other metals,
>etc.) has been altered. It is a genuine science and records have been kept
>and are available to the experts and the students. As time passes a regular
>table in time has been created that gives the assayer an idea of when and
>where a casting has taken place.
>
>Counterfeiters will often make a mold of a truly old coin, then use "modern
>refined" gold to cast a facsimile of it. Then they age it superficially,
>and then endeavor to sell it as a genuine antique. But the actual material
>used (alloys with other metals, and impurities common to the actual time and
>place of origin) have been detected and recorded.
>
>Unless this more thorough type of assay is used, he can be fooled. 
>
>He may however decide to trust on "faith" and "belief" in the honesty and
>veracity of the seller. The result is as all may expect.
>
>Each seeker after TRUTH has to employ their own mind, trained to some
>degree, so that he alone knows how much he can trust that. Very often our
>desires and emotions try to make us decide in haste (and repent at leisure
>?) without using the tedious kind of study needed to ensure accuracy and
>logical reasons for conclusions offered. Then we find (as we have nowadays)
>a number of concurrent dogmatic and authoritarian religions, opinions and
>pronouncements -- and, perhaps, "traditions ?" -- and I have noticed that
>indoctrination of the young proceeds all over the world. No alternatives are
>offered !
>
>The search for TRUTH leads any dedicated seeker (and, whether we know this
>or not, all of us are such) day after day, and life after life, to acquire a
>precise knowledge of the Universe we live in, and which has long been
>established as a common and secure basis for all co-existent and
>pre-existent beings. [As an example at hand, take the meticulous
>fabrication of computers and the software that enables a "user" Mind -- as
>well as many trained "programmer" Minds -- to run them with accuracy and
>trust. There -- is constant verification with concurrent usage. Observe
>the continual war between virus and anti-virus. Who are the "bad-guys?" ]
>
>I think you will find these to be fair analogies to the general "search for
>TRUTH" that many of us are engaged in. Dare we foist our findings on
>others? Can we make any claims for "authority?" I would say NOT. 
>
>In my esteem, "traditions" count for very little unless they can be
>demonstrated to be invariably true on testing, to the basic composition and
>running laws of our UNIVERSE. THEOSOPHY clams to be an exposition of this. 
>
>You may say that our minds and emotions make us fallible, and I would agree
>But why trust me? Consider the following:
>
>1 If idealism and altruism resides in SPIRIT, and if this is
>ubiquitous, then an aspect (ray, spark, etc.) of THAT is interiorly resident
>in every being, monad, life-atom, human, -- and grain of sand -- each is
>potentially, over an enormous period of time and experience, a human
>mind-being. I know this is asking a lot because the implication is that all
>Monads are immortals. We interiorly, are as monads, immortals. Hence, the
>brotherhood of ALL, and the evolution of individual intelligence by means of
>reincarnation and karma are needed, essential, basic and actual facts. 
>
>2 Shall we agree that all beings are united in that FACT of a common
>LIFE -- ever together ? Physical, emotional and mental environments are
>largely shared by us all, regardless of physical distance.
>
>3 Differences (form, emotion, feeling, desires, mind, experience in
>this life) are passing phases of the embodied consciousness -- of memories
>and of appearances, and they are continually changing as the laws of
>progress and continual interaction, demand that the Monads (each being an
>eternal being having individually, some degree of progress) continually move
>and alter within the parameters of the astral (electro-magnetic) framework
>that underlies the presence and the environment of any and all physical and
>non-physical forms. Thus the descriptive concept of "Maya" (illusion) is
>used for our present physical matter knowledge, situation, condition and
>universe. The forms change constantly, our knowledge is continually
>changing and expanding, while the interior ONE SPIRITUAL ENTITY is forever
>the SAME individual. 
>
>4 The "Eternal Pilgrim" [BUDDHI-MANAS] is the "Monad." The Monad is
>described as SPIRIT-MATTER conjoined (sounds somewhat like the "String
>Theory"). It is a duality and requires a coexistent MIND to serve as a
>PERCEIVER and a link between these two extremes. Thus the "Duad" in
>manifestation, is in our reality, always a "TRIAD." 
>
>5 It is ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS [a Triad] in us which is the eternal and
>changeless Perceiver and the ruler of our Lower (embodied brain - Mind) and
>emotions. In the Kosmos it is MAHAT or the UNIVERSAL MIND.
>
>[Have a look at what is said in the SECRET DOCTRINE, Vol. II, p. 167 (see
>below) about a resident Tutor assisting the development of each independent
>Mind being. I find there is a correlation to this as expressed by HPB in
>TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE, pp. 64-5 (below)
>
>If you will concede me this as a fair basis or "source" then, may we can
>proceed to details that I think are valid.
>
>I prefer using HPB's The SECRET DOCTRINE, The VOICE OF THE SILENCE and
>The KEY TO THEOSOPHY as basic source explanations for the details THEOSOPHY
>teaches. I do not feel I need an intermediary to explain them. I have time
>and can use a dictionary and an encyclopedia when needed, "Google" is a
>great help to secure source materials for study. 
>
>But every one is free to choose their own "Path," and, spend as much time as
>is needed to eventually achieve SUPREME PERFECTION.
>
>I also would say that every human is a Mind and a Free Thinker.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Dallas
>===================
> 
>-----Original Message-----
>
>From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
>Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 12:39 PM
>To: 
>Subject: RE: Jerry HE: Does GdP actually teach this view given by Frank?
>
>Dear Dallas,
>
>DTB
> 
>
>>As I said I make little of any "traditions." That is because they do not
>>unite but rather emphasize differences. 
>> 
>>
> 
>JHE
>You may not, but the tradition which you grew up does. For instance, I 
>have never heard of a ULT group offering a class on the Secret Doctrine 
>and Masters on the Path, where the two authors are given the same weight 
>of authority. On the other hand, you have in many of your posts 
>already given the Mahatmas, HPB and Judge higher authority over the 
>others. That in itself is one of the distinctive aspects of your 
>tradition--one that separates it from some other traditions. 
>
>============================
>
>DTB I would not put it in those words
>
>================================
>
>DTB
> 
>
>>Each individual is on his own, whether singly or as a part of any "group."
>>The naming of a "group" and its characteristics rules and regulations does
>>not ensure unanimity of agreement, or of minute attention to continual and
>>disciplined performance by any of the members. 
>> 
>>
>
>JHE
>However, groups generally operate by consensus of the whole rather than 
>unanimity. 
>
>===================================
>
>DTB That is why I say a group is a hindrance
>
>======================================
>
>DTB
> 
>
>>The more time spent on describing, identifying and pursuing the differences
>>of "traditions" etc., the less is devoted to studying THEOSOPHY itself and
>>applying it is daily life. 
>> 
>>
>
>
>JHE
>I prefer to approach all studies, including Theosophy within a context. 
>If we do not understand context, then we become as naive children who 
>cannot discriminate. It is of course good to have the open mind like the 
>child, but not good to have the childish naivete. That can lead to 
>dangerous waters. 
>
>======================================
>
>DTB I the "context" universal and impersonal?
>
>========================================
>
>DTB
> 
>
>>Important question: is it the Higher or the Lower Self that
>>is doing the controlling? Is it "wisdom-BUDDHI" or "folly-KAMA " that
>>motivates us ?
>> 
>>
>
>
>JHE
>With rare exceptions, people live out their lives in the interface of 
>kama and manas. I have met people who have touched into the Buddhi, 
>but only after years of training motivated by solid commitment. None 
>of them are Theosophists. I just smile at the arrogance and ignorance 
>of Theosophists who have told me that if I only lived in my buddhic 
>body, I would find myself in agreement with their views.
>
>==================================
>
>DTB If the "Buddhi" represents wisdom acquired, then how can anyone avid
>"living in it " or "appealing to its support in case of need?" It is
>interior to us and not somewhere outside or something one can buy by
>sacrifice, cash or promises of obedience.
>
>Thanks Dal
>
>=================
>
>Best wishes
>Jerry
>
>============== QUOTES ==============
>
> S D II 167-8
>
>"We now come to an important point with regard to the double evolution of
>the human race, or the spiritual Dhyanis, had become "intellectual" through
>their contact with matter, because they had already reached, during previous
>cycles of incarnation, that degree of intellect which enabled them to become
>independent and self-conscious entities, on this plane of matter. They were
>reborn only by reason of Karmic effects. 
>
>They entered those who were "ready," and became the Arhats, or sages,
>alluded to above. This needs explanation. 
>
>It does not mean that Monads entered forms in which other Monads already
>were. They were "Essences," "Intelligences," and conscious spirits; entities
>seeking to become still more conscious by uniting with more developed
>matter. Their essence was too pure to be distinct from the universal
>essence; but their "Egos," or Manas (since they are called Manasaputra, born
>of "Mahat," or Brahma) had to pass through earthly human experiences to
>become all-wise, and be able to start on the returning ascending cycle. 
>
>The Monads are not discrete principles, limited or conditioned, but rays
>from that one universal absolute Principle. The entrance into a dark room
>through the same aperture of one ray of sunlight following another will not
>constitute two rays, but one ray intensified. It is not in the course of
>natural law that man should become a perfect septenary being, before the
>seventh race in the seventh Round. Yet he has all these principles latent in
>him from his birth. Nor is it part of the evolutionary law that the Fifth
>principle (Manas), should receive its complete development before the Fifth
>Round. 
>
>All such prematurely developed intellects (on the spiritual plane) in our
>Race are abnormal; they are those whom we call the "Fifth-Rounders." Even in
>the coming seventh Race, at the close of this Fourth Round, while our four
>lower principles will be fully developed, that of Manas will be only
>proportionately so. This limitation, however, refers solely to the spiritual
>development. The intellectual, on the physical plane, was reached during the
>Fourth Root-Race. Thus, those who were "half ready," who received "but a
>spark," constitute the average humanity which has to acquire its
>intellectuality during the present Manvantaric evolution, after which they
>will be ready in the next for the full reception of the "Sons of Wisdom." 
>
>While those which "were not ready" at all, the latest Monads, which had
>hardly evolved from their last transitional and lower animal forms at the
>close of the Third Round, remained the "narrow-brained" of the Stanza. This
>explains the otherwise unaccountable degrees of intellectuality among the
>various races of men - the savage Bushman and the European - even now. Those
>tribes of savages, whose reasoning powers are very little above the level of
>the animals, are not the unjustly disinherited, or the unfavoured, as some
>may think - nothing of the kind. They are simply those latest arrivals among
>the human Monads, which were not ready: which have to evolve during the
>present Round, as on the three remaining globes (hence on four different
>planes of being) so as to arrive at the level of the average class when they
>reach the Fifth Round. One remark may prove useful, as food for thought to
>the student in this connection. The MONADS of the lowest specimens of
>humanity (the "narrow-brained" * savage South-Sea Islander, the African, the
>Australian) had no Karma to work out when first born as men, as their more
>favoured brethren in intelligence had. The former are spinning out Karma
>only now; the latter are burdened with past, present, and future Karma. In
>this respect the poor savage is more fortunate than the greatest genius of
>civilised countries. " S D II 167-8
>
>
>"This remark refers to divine Wisdom falling like lightning on, and
>quickening the intellects of those who fight the devils of ignorance and
>superstition. Up to the time when Wisdom, in the shape of the incarnating
>Spirits of MAHAT, descended from on high to animate and call the Third Race
>to real conscious life, humanity - if it can be so called in its animal,
>senseless state -was of course doomed to - moral as well as to physical
>death. 
>
>The Angels fallen into generation are referred to metaphorically as Serpents
>and Dragons of Wisdom. On the other hand, regarded in the light of the
>LOGOS, the Christian Saviour, like Krishna, whether as man or logos, may be
>said to have saved those who believed in the secret teachings from "eternal
>death," to have conquered the Kingdom of Darkness, or Hell, as every
>Initiate does. This in the human, terrestrial form of the Initiates, and
>also because the logos is Christos, that principle of our inner nature which
>develops in us into the Spiritual Ego - the Higher-Self - being formed of
>the indissoluble union of Buddhi (the sixth) and the spiritual efflorescence
>of Manas, the fifth principle.* "The Logos is passive Wisdom in Heaven and
>Conscious, Self-Active Wisdom on Earth," we are taught. It is the Marriage
>of "Heavenly man" with the "Virgin of the World" -Nature, as described in
>Pymander; the result of which is their progeny - immortal man. "
>S D II 230-1
>
>
>"Q. What are the senses which act in dreams? 
>
>A. The senses of the sleeper receive occasional shocks, and are awakened
>into mechanical action; what he hears and sees are, as has been said, a
>distorted reflection of the thoughts of the Ego. 
>
>The latter is highly spiritual, and is linked very closely with the higher
>principles, Buddhi and Atma. These higher principles are entirely inactive
>on our plane, and the higher Ego (Manas) itself is more or less dormant
>during the waking of the physical man. This is especially the case with
>persons of very materialistic mind. 
>
>So dormant are the Spiritual faculties, because the Ego is so trammelled by
>matter, that It can hardly give all its attention to the man's actions, even
>should the latter commit sins for which that Ego-when reunited with its
>lower Manas-will have to suffer conjointly in the future. 
>
>It is, as I said, the impressions projected into the physical man by this
>Ego which constitute what we call "conscience"; and in proportion as the
>Personality, the lower Soul (or Manas), unites itself to its higher
>consciousness, or EGO, does the action of the latter upon the life of mortal
>man become more marked. 
>
>
>Q. This Ego, then, is the "Higher Ego"? 
>
>A. Yes; it is the higher Manas illuminated by Buddhi; the principle of
>self-consciousness, the "I-am-I," in short. It is the Karana-Sarira, the

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