Theos-Talk Archives (August 2005 Message tt00294)

8/27/2005 5:12 AM

Dear Jerry:

Allow me to answer by inserting notes below in your text: 

Dallas

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-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 12:17 PM
To: 
Subject: RE: Jerry HE: Does GdP actually teach this view given by Frank?

Dear Dallas,

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DTB
As I wrote, we (or at least I) are not seeking to identify differences, we
are seeking for the TRUTH -- all of us. In metallurgy (or old alchemy) we
might say we are seeking for the highest known value: "gold."


JHE
As for TRUTH, if you mean an ultimate Truth, its very existence is a 
matter of debate.  

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DTB	Who debated it? Why ?  

Are Minds incapable of encompassing and assimilating it?

I thought "Manas" was described as a fragment of MAHAT -- the Universal Mind
-- the "soul" and the "intellectual understanding" as a manifested
reflection of "All-Wisdom," and the first aspect of Parabrahm, and Pradhana
[S D II 81, 230, 378 ; S D I 75, 110, 256, 335, 373, 420, 451, 572 ] 

Our globe is said to be a progeny of Mahat S D I 260 -- and we, the 
"Manasa-putras" are its "sons" [ S D II 58-9, 103, 167, 230 ]

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JHE
Certain Evangelical faith based groups advocate the 
existence of absolute Truth, and argue that they are the only means to 
it. Personally, I don't believe that the question is answerable one 
way or the other--rather, it is a matter of faith. So, I don't concern 
myself with that question one way or the other. Rather, I am interested 
in those relative truths (knowledge) which can lead to transcendent 
truths (realization). 

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DTB	Lets then agree to look at it your way.

I have always abhorred "faith" which to me signifies: an improvable blind
belief" and why should I take anything important as "true" without
verification ? How do I know the assertion is AUTHORITATIVE ?  

Who the ultimately bears the cost of time effort and money?  

How many flit from "faith" to faith?" 

Is that under the impulse of Manas or of indecisive and thoughtless,
mindless Kama ? I thought we were supposed, at this period in the great
cycle, to be ridding ourselves of "belief" and entering the realm of logic,
reason and proof? 
The "Fifth Race" is due to develop mind as a faculty, and abandon frivolous
and selfish "passions and desires." 

A sense of cooperative and interactive brotherhood under impersonal and
universal Law, would certainly tend to give a reasonable assurance of
veracity to any proposition placed before it ? 

Is that not the tacit basis for all legislation and legal procedures -- and
we may see this operating throughout the world ? Why should philosophy
forego that advantage ? What does "common sense" say? 

Where are the "relative truths" emanating from? (knowledge of detail or
measurement of differences and separateness) .

If we have access to a knowledge of the "ultimate units of time" and
"space," we might be able to determine (approximately) what some of the
"relative (mayavic) truths" are. But at present our instruments and
faculties are filtered through "physical gross matter ?" And that is said
to alter constantly, by both Science and Theosophy -- also, both use the
(mind) concept of the eternity and unalterable qualities of the "atoms."
Both accept the reign of universal law that governs the physical qualities
and interactions of substances. And we are beginning to suspect and
contact the realm of invisible and intangible substances -- [the electro-
and magneto-spheres associated with all objects in whatever state].

But inasmuch as forms continually vary from moment to moment (under the law
of the astral electro-magnetic life-fields) as atoms and sub-atoms of LIFE
come and go, (can we assume this is done individually and invariably under
Universal LAW or Karma?) stability is almost unobtainable from the point of
view of our physical plane observation -- am I right? Apparently the
electro-magnetic (place, location, time) fields are stronger than mere
physical bonding. And what are they? How do they come into existence? [How
does the body heal itself?] 

Apparently Nature (the Living Universe) has her own plans and methods and
those have been in place since before we were born -- how far back we don't
know -- supersede ours. They could be the actual rules and order of all
evolution -- from within to the without. 

So any physical measurement we may make, now or hereafter, has to depend on
"memory." For us stone, or one of the inert metals (like Titanium) appears
to be such a long-lasting record. But even those have limits and we can
hardly be sure of myths and traditions that are over 7,000 years in age.
How old are the Pyramids built by 3rd and 4th Race Initiates [ S D II
353; S D I 314-5 ] ? 

How stable is our (human) memory? Are we yet able to penetrate to that
plane of indelible eternity (Akasa) where those records are inscribed by the
Lipika [S D I 103-5, 126-131, ? (or even to the records in the "astral
light?" ( S D I 59, 63). I assume the "Lipika" are actually one of the
highest functions of the living atoms of life themselves -- all immortals!

I can see, if this is a correct procedure, that "relative truths
(knowledge)" which can lead to "transcendent truths (realization)" means:
the "relative truths" gives evidence but no absolute detail about underlying
"transcendent truths" -- which 'the epoptai-Initiates' may secure as a
vision by "realization." Since this faculty is under development, and is
not yet a common property or means of inter-communication, there will be
room for inaccuracy and speculation at present. Is this not the method of
KAMA-MANAS ?

---------------------------------------------


JHE
As for the gold metaphor: I think that the manner of one's search 
depends upon one's mining techniques. I prefer an historical approach 
to understanding (but also like to use others too). Some prefer a 
phenomenological approach. Others, an essentialist approach and, still 
others, a post-modern approach etc. It appears that you prefer the 
essentialist approach. That seems to work for you. The historical 
approach works for me. 

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DTB	I did not mean mining techniques or molding methods. I allegorized
GOLD for TRUTH.  

All the methods of "approach" you mention will fall under your "relative
truths (knowledge)" category -- to which my synthetic comments apply.

One gets lost in detail and as you suspect my "essentialist approach" is one
that strives to use the pure BUDDHI-MANAS and not the KAMA-MANAS.  

If BUDDHI approaches the closest to ATMA, then why not use it as best we can
if we can secure some concept of its actuality and methods. [I found
Patanjali's YOGA SUTRAS very helpful in this.]

I am curious about the "historical method" you use? Can you share ?

I have labored over years, reviewing the writings and ideas that those who
have succeeded HPB in writing on THEOSOPHY have recorded. I find (for me)
that they obscure more often than enlighten. Judge is an exception as a
writer, as he never assumes to correct or "know better than" either the
Masters or HPB. I am essentially independent and test everything I reads
with common sense and a sense of the orderliness and purpose of the
Universe, World, Humans, and atoms. 

I think universal CONSCIOUSNESS -- "to know itself" -- periodically (but
under UNIVERSAL Karma) splits cyclically into countless fragments, each a
"potency" and a "mirror" of that ONE, SOLE and ever UNKNOWABLE -- and in
the administration of harmony, purpose and equality for all, each Monad
develops an independent yet cooperative Mind, which voluntarily abides by
the rules and regulations of the UNIVERSAL LAW (without surrendering its
individuality and potential of individual action) -- thus we all eventually
develop the ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS Spiritual Entity within ourselves and thus
become Mahatmas individually. I may be wrong on this, but I suspect I am
more right than wrong. 

--------------------------------------------

DTB
Original minted gold coins have been counterfeited after that first casting
time for ages. But modern science enables us to assay them for their alloys
and impurities to the extent that a trained assayist can determine from a
sample the probable age and era of the casting of any coin. He discovers
when it was most likely cast, and whether the mix (impurities, other metals,
etc.) has been altered.

JHE
This is all new to me. I have an interest in ancient coins, and have a 
small collection of them. From all of my reading, they classify, date 
and identify fakes purely by their appearance. I never heard of anyone 
taking a valuable gold coin, and assay it (which would deface or destroy 
the coin) in order to determine this information. 

-----------------------------------------

DTB	From what I have read [from texts on Gemology and Precious Metals]
only a very minute quantity is used and the integrity and value of the coin
is not impaired.

--------------------------------------------

DTB
I also would say that every human is a Mind and a Free Thinker.
  

JHE
Some seem to be freer than others.



DTB
If you will concede me this as a fair basis or "source" then, may we can
proceed to details that I think are valid.
  


JHE
Yes, I gladly concede to you that you have created an excellent summary 
of the source teachings according to your tradition. 

------------------------------------

DTB	There we go again: You assume I have adopted a "tradition." I say
I am independent, but use any "tradition," to the extent that it is fair,
free of bias, and true to reason and logic.  

For example: I have been in life an editor of scientific material for may
years, and privately, a philosopher. The two are not incompatible to me.
THEOSOPHY seems to be the most balanced, all-inclusive and eclectic system
so far made available to us. It needs to be carefully studied so that each
student assures himself of its value. So, having found it the most useful
and truest so far, I defend it and its proponents. 

Let me ask:

In what way is "your tradition (mine)" different from yours, or any other ?

SOURCE and BASIS ought to coincide? If they are fair and logical and true?
NO ? Possibly words make some difference, but not to the originals, surely?

Is it the ORIGINALS you are unsure of? 

Do you mean HPB did not bring Masters' message in full? [ In spite of what
They "the Masters" say and demonstrate ? ]

Can you give a summary of yours for comparison? 

It would help me understand. Dal

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Best wishes,
Jerry


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W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote:

8/25/2005 

Dear Jerry:

Re: "Traditions"

As I wrote, we (or at least I) are not seeking to identify differences, we
are seeking for the TRUTH -- all of us. In metallurgy (or old alchemy) we
might say we are seeking for the highest known value: "gold."

What are the rules and laws established by Nature -- to run our Universe,
our world and our physical and conscious existence, and mental presence? Are
they not the "gold" of the entire system? 

Are they not, since antiquity, set in place for our support, life and
well-being? [Not only ours, but that of all other beings, atoms, galaxies,
etc.] 

Where and how did they evolve? Who guided, devised and set them going? Are
they impossible to discover?  

Do not Science and Philosophy endeavour to solve those mysteries?

In mathematics, the rules of arithmetic may be seen as the source,
foundation and basics of the whole system of enumeration -- the enormous
complexity and measurement (in engineering, chemistry, physics, astronomy,
etc...) of detail that calculus expresses, is based on UNITY (the ONE) and
that in turn, may be imagined to radiate or emanate (?) from the
indescribable ZERO ( 0 ) that some denominate THE ABSOLUTE.  

We recognize intellectually this ONE [that to us is quite indistinct (for it
is either too large or to small) and, to many, it appears to be devoid of
qualities] when "manifested into objectivity," becomes the TWO ( 2 ). 

This has been designated a symbol for the countless indivisible (strings -
?) of ATMA-BUDDHI "monads." The symbolic analogy then proceeds to THREE (3
) that includes the PERCEIVER or MIND. [ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS] 

Suppose we were numismatists -- coin collectors. Then, we might seek to find
true and authentic old coins for our collection. Let us take the rarest:
GOLD.

Original minted gold coins have been counterfeited after that first casting
time for ages. But modern science enables us to assay them for their alloys
and impurities to the extent that a trained assayist can determine from a
sample the probable age and era of the casting of any coin. He discovers
when it was most likely cast, and whether the mix (impurities, other metals,
etc.) has been altered. It is a genuine science and records have been kept
and are available to the experts and the students. As time passes a regular
table in time has been created that gives the assayer an idea of when and
where a casting has taken place.

Counterfeiters will often make a mold of a truly old coin, then use "modern
refined" gold to cast a facsimile of it. Then they age it superficially,
and then endeavor to sell it as a genuine antique. But the actual material
used (alloys with other metals, and impurities common to the actual time and
place of origin) have been detected and recorded.

Unless this more thorough type of assay is used, he can be fooled.  

He may however decide to trust on "faith" and "belief" in the honesty and
veracity of the seller. The result is as all may expect.

Each seeker after TRUTH has to employ their own mind, trained to some
degree, so that he alone knows how much he can trust that. Very often our
desires and emotions try to make us decide in haste (and repent at leisure
?) without using the tedious kind of study needed to ensure accuracy and
logical reasons for conclusions offered. Then we find (as we have nowadays)
a number of concurrent dogmatic and authoritarian religions, opinions and
pronouncements -- and, perhaps, "traditions ?" -- and I have noticed that
indoctrination of the young proceeds all over the world. No alternatives are
offered !

The search for TRUTH leads any dedicated seeker (and, whether we know this
or not, all of us are such) day after day, and life after life, to acquire a
precise knowledge of the Universe we live in, and which has long been
established as a common and secure basis for all co-existent and
pre-existent beings. [As an example at hand, take the meticulous
fabrication of computers and the software that enables a "user" Mind -- as
well as many trained "programmer" Minds -- to run them with accuracy and
trust. There -- is constant verification with concurrent usage. Observe
the continual war between virus and anti-virus. Who are the "bad-guys?" ]

I think you will find these to be fair analogies to the general "search for
TRUTH" that many of us are engaged in. Dare we foist our findings on
others? Can we make any claims for "authority?" I would say NOT. 

In my esteem, "traditions" count for very little unless they can be
demonstrated to be invariably true on testing, to the basic composition and
running laws of our UNIVERSE. THEOSOPHY clams to be an exposition of his. 

You may say that our minds and emotions make us fallible, and I would agree
But why trust me? Consider the following:

1	If idealism and altruism resides in SPIRIT, and if this is
ubiquitous, then an aspect (ray, spark, etc.) of THAT is interiorly resident
in every being, monad, life-atom, human, -- and grain of sand -- each is
potentially, over an enormous period of time and experience, a human
mind-being. I know this is asking a lot because the implication is that all
Monads are immortals. We interiorly, are as monads, immortals. Hence, the
brotherhood of ALL, and the evolution of individual intelligence by means of
reincarnation and karma are needed, essential, basic and actual facts. 

2	Shall we agree that all beings are united in that FACT of a common
LIFE -- ever together ? Physical, emotional and mental environments are
largely shared by us all, regardless of physical distance.

3	Differences (form, emotion, feeling, desires, mind, experience in
this life) are passing phases of the embodied consciousness -- of memories
and of appearances, and they are continually changing as the laws of
progress and continual interaction, demand that the Monads (each being an
eternal being having individually, some degree of progress) continually move
and alter within the parameters of the astral (electro-magnetic) framework
that underlies the presence and the environment of any and all physical and
non-physical forms. Thus the descriptive concept of "Maya" (illusion) is
used for our present physical matter knowledge, situation, condition and
universe. The forms change constantly, our knowledge is continually
changing and expanding, while the interior ONE SPIRITUAL ENTITY is forever
the SAME individual. 

4	The "Eternal Pilgrim" [BUDDHI-MANAS] is the "Monad." The Monad is
described as SPIRIT-MATTER conjoined (sounds somewhat like the "String
Theory"). It is a duality and requires a coexistent MIND to serve as a
PERCEIVER and a link between these two extremes. Thus the "Duad" in
manifestation, is in our reality, always a "TRIAD."  

5	It is ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS [a Triad] in us which is the eternal and
changeless Perceiver and the ruler of our Lower (embodied brain - Mind) and
emotions. In the Kosmos it is MAHAT or the UNIVERSAL MIND.

[Have a look at what is said in the SECRET DOCTRINE, Vol. II, p. 167 (see
below) about a resident Tutor assisting the development of each independent
Mind being. I find there is a correlation to this as expressed by HPB in
TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE, pp. 64-5 (below)

If you will concede me this as a fair basis or "source" then, may we can
proceed to details that I think are valid.

I prefer using HPB's The SECRET DOCTRINE, The VOICE OF THE SILENCE and
The KEY TO THEOSOPHY as basic source explanations for the details THEOSOPHY
teaches. I do not feel I need an intermediary to explain them. I have time
and can use a dictionary and an encyclopedia when needed, "Google" is a
great help to secure source materials for study. 

But every one is free to choose their own "Path," and, spend as much time as
is needed to eventually achieve SUPREME PERFECTION.

I also would say that every human is a Mind and a Free Thinker.

Best wishes,

Dallas
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