Theos-Talk Archives (August 2005 Message tt00222)

Jerry,

Thanks for your informative posting below.

So there is no room for confusion or misunderstanding,
you are stating that as far as you know GdeP did 
NOT teach that men "possess" a divine soul but women
do not. Correct?

In fact, you wrote [with my comments added in brackets]:

"...GdeP of course recognized sexual differences in the 
physical body and the linga sharira, but the higher principles 
[including the divine soul] do not have sexual attributes and, they 
[the higher principles including the divine soul] are part of all
of our [BOTH male AND female] constitutions."

Daniel



--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@c...> 
wrote:
> Dear Frank, Daniel, Pedro et al,
> 
> As for GdeP's teaching on the seven fold constitution, it does 
not 
> contradict HPB or the Mahatma letters in any way that I have 
detected. 
> Rather, I found it to integrate together what was written in these 
> sources into a rather clear explanation. 
> 
> As for divine souls: GdeP of course recognized sexual differences 
in the 
> physical body and the linga sharira, but the higher principles do 
not 
> have sexual attributes and, they are part of all of our 
constitutions. 
> Also, the idea of male and female divine souls is not a part of 
GdeP's 
> teachings, as far as I know. He also does not endorse the notion 
of 
> "soul mates" that we find in new age philosophy. 
> 
> As for whether or not GdeP specifically said that Grace should not 
be 
> Leader: I have not heard this. However, I do have some documents 
here 
> that indicate to my mind, that GdeP did not expect any successor 
to come 
> to take his place--whether that be Grace, or anyone else. On the 
other 
> hand, as far as I know, Grace never demanded that anyone accept 
her as 
> "Leader," in the sense that KT used it, as condition of 
membership. She 
> never demanded it of me or my wife. Under Grace, things at 
Pasadena 
> changed dramatically. 
> 
> As for the homosexuality issue: I have never seen any text where 
GdeP 
> condemns it. Grace Knoche, Kirby Van Mater, Emmett Small, Boris 
> DeZirkoff, and Gordon Plummer were all GdeP's students, and none 
of them 
> ever said anything negative about homosexuality in my presence, or 
on 
> any recorded talks that I have heard. Lina Psaltis, who was 
Boris' 
> student, had her own study group which I was privileged to have 
been a 
> part of for eighteen years. One member of this study group was 
> homosexual. Everyone was aware of it. Yet neither Lina or anyone 
else in 
> that group considered him less worthy in any way. 
> 
> As for Grace's part in the 1951 event: It is true that there were 
deep 
> wounds, mistakes were made, and that the people involved, on both 
sides 
> of the question, had to live with those wounds and those 
mistakes. 
> However, I must say this: I had a chance to become very close to 
Emmett 
> over the course of the last twenty years of his life. From that 
> experience, I can say this with absolute certainty: The one thing 
that 
> Emmett wanted to see was for the wrongs to be resolved, the wounds 
to be 
> healed, and for the Theosophical Movement to once again become a 
unified 
> force for the betterment of humanity. To get a feel for Emmett's 
> attitudes on this, you might look through the issues of the 
Eclectic 
> Theosophist from 1984s through the end where he worked so hard to 
> promote the Theosophical Networking movement. An idea that G.de P. 
also 
> tried to promote in 1930. 
> 
> Best Wishes,
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frank Reitemeyer wrote:
> 
> >Daniel, Pedro, Jerry et al, at present I am occupied and for a 
longer period 
> >with other duties, so I'll have not enough time to make a search.
> >I would be glad if Jerry - or any other on this list - would 
provide us with 
> >an exact quote of GdeP's words on leadership of women in the TM.
> >
> >I think it was in one of his circulars, but I can err as it is 
over ten 
> >years back when I read it.
> >I associate it with GdeP's condemnation of homosexuality. It may 
be the same 
> >text.
> >We discussed the women and homosexuality question and GdeP's 
views on it in 
> >a local lodge, so I am quite sure this texts exists.
> >I think someone once said that widespread of this more esoteric 
text is not 
> >wished, because of the contrary Zeitgeist.
> >GdeP said that his hint - not to make a woman a leader as a 
general rule - 
> >must be followed for some centuries to follow, because of the 
present 
> >conditions of the astral world.
> >Obviously, women are closer to the astral world than men.
> >
> >But I think, in the curse of time, there may be many serious 
theosophical 
> >students out there, which would like to study GdeP's hints.
> >When we discussed it, others shared their memories about the 
words of Elsie 
> >Benjamin, who in the 1980's was sometimes in Berlin.
> >She was the private secretary to GdeP and told many interesting 
details. She 
> >reported, too, his views on women and that GdeP did not want that 
Grace F. 
> >Knoche ever gets a leading post.
> >To prevent this he even once used occult power. The irony of 
history is that 
> >she was instrumental in the 1946 conspiracy against GdeP's 
closest chelas 
> >and became President of a "Theosophical Society" in the 1970's, 
of which W. 
> >Emmett Small wrote in sharp words.
> >
> >Contrary to Danil (or others) I see NO CONTRADICTION between the 
views I 
> >impute to GdeP and the views of KH.
> >I am rather really shocked that one can see such a contradiction. 
I had to 
> >exert myself much to understand what you, Daniel, mean by this 
alleged 
> >contradiction.
> >But now I have it, but it is a riddle to me.
> >Frank
> >
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" <danielhcaldwell@y...>
> >To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> >Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 6:21 PM
> >Subject: Theos-World To Jerry HE: Does GdP actually teach this 
view given by 
> >Frank?
> >
> >
> >To Jerry HE:
> >
> >Although I have read some of GdP's books, I am
> >not a close student of ALL or even most of his writings.
> >
> >Can you tell us from your own study of GdP if he
> >actually teaches this view as given by Frank?
> >
> >For background, see:
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/28014
> >
> >Daniel
> >http://hpb.cc
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >