Theos-Talk Archives (August 2005 Message tt00223)

Dear Daniel,

Yes, as far as I know, GdeP did not teach that men posses a divine soul 
and women do not. However, Frank may find a reference that may surprise 
us all. GdeP does have some teachings that appear to be completely 
unique in the Theosophical literature. 
Jerry



Daniel H. Caldwell wrote:

> Jerry,
>
> Thanks for your informative posting below.
>
> So there is no room for confusion or misunderstanding,
> you are stating that as far as you know GdeP did 
> NOT teach that men "possess" a divine soul but women
> do not. Correct?
>
> In fact, you wrote [with my comments added in brackets]:
>
> "...GdeP of course recognized sexual differences in the 
> physical body and the linga sharira, but the higher principles 
> [including the divine soul] do not have sexual attributes and, they 
> [the higher principles including the divine soul] are part of all
> of our [BOTH male AND female] constitutions."
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@c...> 
> wrote:
>
>
> > Dear Frank, Daniel, Pedro et al,
> >
> > As for GdeP's teaching on the seven fold constitution, it does 
> not 
>
> > contradict HPB or the Mahatma letters in any way that I have 
> detected. 
>
> > Rather, I found it to integrate together what was written in these 
> > sources into a rather clear explanation. 
> > As for divine souls: GdeP of course recognized sexual differences 
> in the 
>
> > physical body and the linga sharira, but the higher principles do 
> not 
>
> > have sexual attributes and, they are part of all of our 
> constitutions. 
>
> > Also, the idea of male and female divine souls is not a part of 
> GdeP's 
>
> > teachings, as far as I know. He also does not endorse the notion 
> of 
>
> > "soul mates" that we find in new age philosophy. 
> > As for whether or not GdeP specifically said that Grace should not 
> be 
>
> > Leader: I have not heard this. However, I do have some documents 
> here 
>
> > that indicate to my mind, that GdeP did not expect any successor 
> to come 
>
> > to take his place--whether that be Grace, or anyone else. On the 
> other 
>
> > hand, as far as I know, Grace never demanded that anyone accept 
> her as 
>
> > "Leader," in the sense that KT used it, as condition of 
> membership. She 
>
> > never demanded it of me or my wife. Under Grace, things at 
> Pasadena 
>
> > changed dramatically. 
> > As for the homosexuality issue: I have never seen any text where 
> GdeP 
>
> > condemns it. Grace Knoche, Kirby Van Mater, Emmett Small, Boris 
> > DeZirkoff, and Gordon Plummer were all GdeP's students, and none 
> of them 
>
> > ever said anything negative about homosexuality in my presence, or 
> on 
>
> > any recorded talks that I have heard. Lina Psaltis, who was 
> Boris' 
>
> > student, had her own study group which I was privileged to have 
> been a 
>
> > part of for eighteen years. One member of this study group was 
> > homosexual. Everyone was aware of it. Yet neither Lina or anyone 
> else in 
>
> > that group considered him less worthy in any way. 
> > As for Grace's part in the 1951 event: It is true that there were 
> deep 
>
> > wounds, mistakes were made, and that the people involved, on both 
> sides 
>
> > of the question, had to live with those wounds and those 
> mistakes. 
>
> > However, I must say this: I had a chance to become very close to 
> Emmett 
>
> > over the course of the last twenty years of his life. From that 
> > experience, I can say this with absolute certainty: The one thing 
> that 
>
> > Emmett wanted to see was for the wrongs to be resolved, the wounds 
> to be 
>
> > healed, and for the Theosophical Movement to once again become a 
> unified 
>
> > force for the betterment of humanity. To get a feel for Emmett's 
> > attitudes on this, you might look through the issues of the 
> Eclectic 
>
> > Theosophist from 1984s through the end where he worked so hard to 
> > promote the Theosophical Networking movement. An idea that G.de P. 
> also 
>
> > tried to promote in 1930. 
> > Best Wishes,
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Frank Reitemeyer wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Daniel, Pedro, Jerry et al, at present I am occupied and for a 
> longer period 
>
> > > with other duties, so I'll have not enough time to make a search.
> > > I would be glad if Jerry - or any other on this list - would 
> provide us with 
>
> > > an exact quote of GdeP's words on leadership of women in the TM.
> > >
> > > I think it was in one of his circulars, but I can err as it is 
> over ten 
>
> > > years back when I read it.
> > > I associate it with GdeP's condemnation of homosexuality. It may 
> be the same 
>
> > > text.
> > > We discussed the women and homosexuality question and GdeP's 
> views on it in 
>
> > > a local lodge, so I am quite sure this texts exists.
> > > I think someone once said that widespread of this more esoteric 
> text is not 
>
> > > wished, because of the contrary Zeitgeist.
> > > GdeP said that his hint - not to make a woman a leader as a 
> general rule - 
>
> > > must be followed for some centuries to follow, because of the 
> present 
>
> > > conditions of the astral world.
> > > Obviously, women are closer to the astral world than men.
> > >
> > > But I think, in the curse of time, there may be many serious 
> theosophical 
>
> > > students out there, which would like to study GdeP's hints.
> > > When we discussed it, others shared their memories about the 
> words of Elsie 
>
> > > Benjamin, who in the 1980's was sometimes in Berlin.
> > > She was the private secretary to GdeP and told many interesting 
> details. She 
>
> > > reported, too, his views on women and that GdeP did not want that 
> Grace F. 
>
> > > Knoche ever gets a leading post.
> > > To prevent this he even once used occult power. The irony of 
> history is that 
>
> > > she was instrumental in the 1946 conspiracy against GdeP's 
> closest chelas 
>
> > > and became President of a "Theosophical Society" in the 1970's, 
> of which W. 
>
> > > Emmett Small wrote in sharp words.
> > >
> > > Contrary to Danil (or others) I see NO CONTRADICTION between the 
> views I 
>
> > > impute to GdeP and the views of KH.
> > > I am rather really shocked that one can see such a contradiction. 
> I had to 
>
> > > exert myself much to understand what you, Daniel, mean by this 
> alleged 
>
> > > contradiction.
> > > But now I have it, but it is a riddle to me.
> > > Frank
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" <danielhcaldwell@y...>
> > > To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 6:21 PM
> > > Subject: Theos-World To Jerry HE: Does GdP actually teach this 
> view given by 
>
> > > Frank?
> > >
> > >
> > > To Jerry HE:
> > >
> > > Although I have read some of GdP's books, I am
> > > not a close student of ALL or even most of his writings.
> > >
> > > Can you tell us from your own study of GdP if he
> > > actually teaches this view as given by Frank?
> > >
> > > For background, see:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/28014
> > >
> > > Daniel
> > > http://hpb.cc
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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