Theos-Talk Archives (May 2005 Message tt00736)

Dear Perry,

 

I think one year now you are coming up again and again with the same question, .Already you wrote an email to Mrs Radha Burnier and you got an answer which you posted in this forum if my memory is not wrong.

 

What can I tell you as 16 years member of the Theosophical Society is that I never had any difficult in finding any book or article of my interest. When you mention about articles you refer to which magazine? To the official magazine of the T.S. which is The Theosophist? How long are you subscribed to The Theosophist?

 

Well I will tell you that in the time I was still settled in Brazil the T.S. there was having around 800 members from this I may count with my fingershow many T.S. members in Brazil were subscribed to The Theosophist. Also here in Greece we have around 80 members, none is subscribed to the Theosophist. If you are a member of the T.S.go in your area and check how many are subscribed to the official magazine of the T.S..

 

Now every section has its own magazine and in such magazines different articles are published in different languages. How you can conclude that the editors of all this magazines which are connected to Adyar refuse to publish articles comparing Blavatsky and CWL's teachings? I will tell you here in Greece is not the case, I was even asked to write about it by the editor, eventually I will.

 

Anyway people here transformed CWL into the Judas of the T.S. soon they aregoing to make a doll of him and throw stones and burn the traitor. But other claims that for me are very serious seem of not interest for others. As for sample the claims of Judge having medium communication with Blavatsky. Blavatsky was extremely against any form of medium 

practices and she promised after her dead that she would not contact anyone. Was Judge or Blavatsky a liar? 

 

Closing, people they need myths to go on. So they transformed many T.S. leaders into holy, others into victims, others into Dugpas, others into traitors etc. But they can’t see that all those theosophists that dedicated themselves to a noble cause, were humans with imperfections, with problems, just humans. 

 

Erica



 


Perry Coles <perrycoles@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hello Erica,
I am not asking the society to take an official position on any 
teacher.
I've simply asked, is it true that articles comparing the teachings 
of Blavatsky and her teachers with those of C W Leadbeater are not 
allowed in official publications of the Adyar society.

This from what little feedback I have had from the Society appears 
to be the case as it is not denied.

As is verified now we know Leadbeater lied about his birth date.
This and other evidence of him telling lies or making up stories 
about his past gives students good reason to call into question many 
of his claims and by default his revelations and teachings.
Writers should have the freedom to comment on this in society 
publications.
If it is so well known in the society why is this freedom not given 
to students to publish suchlike articles that comment on these facts.

Other students can always counter any point made by way of letters 
to the editor.

I don't think this is complicated it's a straight forward issue.

Regards

Perry

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Letzerich" 
wrote:
> Dear Perry,
> 
> Let's not complicate things that in fact are simple and obvious. 
> Which information related to the subject I approached you consider 
> valid? To know who are or who are going to be Bishops of the LCC? 
Go 
> to the site of the LCC and ask there for such information. 
> 
> I am not questioning the contribution Dr. Tillett gave to the 
> Theosophical History in his book. But I do question the open and 
> deliberately expressions of hostility, which for some may pass 
> unnoticed but for other more acquainted with some situations is 
> obvious. 
> 
> All the members of the Theosophical Society are very well informed 
> about the controversies related to Leadbeater. Actually when I 
first 
> become a member such was probably one of the first information I 
> had. Even here in Greece that members of the T.S. are somehow 
> completely disconnected from the reality of the T.S. in the world 
> and have a very poor theosophical literature translated to Greek 
> they know about such controversies.
> 
> Recently Dr. Algeo published some letters related to the life of 
> Blavatsky. Him and others involved in this publication are now 
> targets of endless critics and attacks from the side of the 
> Blavatskyan fundamentalists. 
> 
> The history of the T.S. has not only dark spots related to CWL's 
> life but also to its founders and many other members. And that is 
> why all of them were humans as we are and as such mistakes are a 
> natural thing. Judge declares to have received mediunic messages 
of 
> Blavatsky. While Blavatsky declared she would never contact anyone 
> after she leaves this world. 
> 
> The truth is not hidden and it is clear exposed in many books and 
> many writings, and most probably more truths are going to be 
brought 
> to light. So it is easy to stick in CWL and his church, while 
> refusing to see all the other gaps that exist.
> 
> 
> "Would you agree that if certain verifiable information comes to 
> light that calls into question the veracity of a prominent writers 
> information then the society is morally and duty bound to bring 
this 
> to the members attention even if it has repercussions for the 
> society?"
> 
> Now which official position would you like the T.S to take? To 
> inform all the members that C.W.L. was a mythomaniac, that Judge 
was 
> a liar, that Blavatsky offered herself to be a spy and had a child 
> so she never died as a virgin, that Olcott turned his back to 
> Blavatsky in a moment of great need, that Besant had an affair 
with 
> Bernard Shaw and was influenced by CWL, that Arundale wrote 
articles 
> praising Hitler before the II war start, that Geoffrey Hodson made 
a 
> clairvoyant description of the greatness of the Hitler aura. 
> 
> Yeah because if the T.S. starts taking official positions pros or 
> contra it will be necessary also to do the same with all the 
others. 
> No dear this can't happen and I think for the sake of the T.S. as 
a 
> society the wisest position is taken, that is of neutrality. All 
its 
> members are free to discuss to write and to choose which position 
> they are going to take. Let everyone to judge by their own but do 
> not condemn others for their personal choices, preferences and 
> religious positions.
> 
> Erica 
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Perry Coles" 

> wrote:
> > Hello Erica,
> > I cant help but feel that there is a bit of a blind spot here on 
> the 
> > issue of valid criticism.
> > 
> > Would you agree that if certain verifiable information comes to 
> > light that calls into question the veracity of a prominent 
writers 
> > information then the society is morally and duty bound to bring 
> this 
> > to the members attention even if it has repercussions for the 
> > society?
> > 
> > To do this would be noble action not one of shame.
> > 
> > Dr Tillett has brought very relevant and important facts to bear 
> on 
> > the life of Bishop Leadbeater, facts that have important 
> > implications for those who read his books.
> > 
> > As I see it lack of critical comment is not necessarily a sign 
of 
> > virtue it can actually be a simple symptom of co dependence and 
a 
> > dis functional aversion to valid and needed rational debate.
> > 
> > In families this type of aversion can lead to extremely 
> > disempowering and destructive behaviour as any councillor will 
> tell 
> > you.
> > 
> > A victim of sexual abuse by a family member for example may be 
> told 
> > not to say anything as they will cause friction and "disharmony" 
> in 
> > the family.
> > It can lead to a conspiracy of silence and allow the most 
> outrageous 
> > behaviour to go unchallenged and spread greater disharmony.
> > (see M Scott Peck's book : People of the lie)
> > 
> > This can lead to a deadening of conscience and in theosophical 
> terms 
> > mean blocking the impulses from the higher ethical and truthful 
> > energies of Buddhi.
> > Rather than warm fuzzies the higher Self impulses can cause 
great 
> > upset and turmoil for the personality.
> > 
> > Remember the motto of the society is "there is no Religion 
higher 
> > than Truth".
> > This is a very high demand and all of us fall short of it.
> > However I do feel we need to try and promote it as best we can.
> > You do seem like a person who is genuinely looking to promote 
what 
> > is right and true.
> > 
> > It is my offering here that the above points can go by unchecked 
> > sometimes and am interested in your comments and point of view.
> > Regards
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > Perry
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Letzerich" 
> > wrote:
> > > I might reconsider my statement about the animosity against 
> Adyar 
> > > members. 
> > > 
> > > I know as much you know that there is a general prejudice of 
> some 
> > > persons towards members of the LCC. What was the point of Dr. 
> > Tillet 
> > > mentioning that Pedro will be elected a Bishop of the LCC?
> > > 
> > > Dr. Tillet not happy went on, saying that Pedro is an employee 
> of 
> > > Adyar, but he did not mention that before an employee he was 
and 
> > is 
> > > a theosophist dedicated to the cause, without any material 
> > > possession and the gain of being employee of Adyar does not 
> confer 
> > > anyone any material status. On the contrary a series of 
> sacrifices 
> > > and losses. But of course Dr. Tillets posts were a try to 
> > depreciate 
> > > Pedro's arguments using his status in the T.S. Adyar and the 
> fact 
> > > that he is connected to the LCC as factors that could 
undermine 
> > his 
> > > ability to see things and to think. I think this is clear.
> > > 
> > > You mentioned that:
> > > "As one who has no dog in this fight, and who likes Pedro very 
> > much, 
> > > I still have to tell you that he started this particular line 
of 
> > > attack and counterattack. Again, what you see is through some
> > > organizational blinders."
> > > 
> > > Well below you may read the normal order of the events. 
> > > 
> > > gregory@
> > > Tue May 24, 2005 4:07 am
> > > "A correspondent from Perth (Western Australia) advises me 
that 
> > > Pedro is to be made a bishop of the Liberal Catholic Church 
> later 
> > > this year by the Church's Presiding Bishop, Ian Hooker." Dr 
> > Gregory 
> > > Tillett
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/26748
> > > 
> > > 
> > > prmoliveira" 

> > > Date: Thu May 26, 2005 4:11 am
> > > 
> > > "Few of his readers perhaps know that Dr Tillet was a Clergy 
in 
> > Minor
> > > Orders (Cleric) in the Australian Province of the LCC for 
several
> > > years and contributed articles to its magazine ("Communion")." 
> > > pedro
> > > 
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/26793
> > > 
> > > Erica
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "kpauljohnson" 
> > > wrote:
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Erica Letzerich 
> > > 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Dear Krishtar,
> > > > 
> > > > > First of all I think that it is clear that there are a 
high 
> > > level 
> > > > of animosity expressed towards the members and dedicated 
> fellows 
> > > > connected to the T.S. Adyar. I do not see any members of the 
> > T.S. 
> > > > Adyar within this forum trying to impose their ideas towards 
> > > others; 
> > > > on the contrary they defend their point of views with 
balance. 
> > > > > 
> > > > Dear Erica,
> > > > 
> > > > I think this is profoundly wrong on two counts. Count up 
all 
> > the 
> > > > attacks on non-Adyar Theosophical organizations emanating 
from 
> > > Daniel 
> > > > and Anand, and then reconsider the above statement.
> > > > 
> > > > Secondly, consider that many of us with highly critical 
> > attitudes 
> > > > toward the Adyar TS and some of its leaders past and present 
> > might 
> > > > have very positive attitudes toward most of the members we 
> have 
> > > > known. (And some of the leaders, e.g. John Coats about whom 
> > nary 
> > > a 
> > > > bad word has ever been written here AFAIK.) I can certainly 
> say 
> > > that 
> > > > for myself, and would suspect that several others here would 
> > agree.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Nobody is to be condemned to be a priest, to be an 
employee 
> of 
> > > the 
> > > > T.S. Adyar or not. To use the personal choices of others, 
> their 
> > > > religious preferences or their support for an author or 
other 
> to 
> > > try 
> > > > to depreciate their point of view and opinions it is not a 
> fair 
> > > game. 
> > > > I really did not see the point of Dr. Tillet announcing here 
> in 
> > > this 
> > > > forum that Pedro will be a future Bishop of the LCC. 
> > > > > 
> > > > As one who has no dog in this fight, and who likes Pedro 
very 
> > > much, I 
> > > > still have to tell you that he started this particular line 
of 
> > > attack 
> > > > and counterattack. Again, what you see is through some 
> > > > organizational blinders.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > What he is trying to prove with these posts that Pedro's 
> > > opinions 
> > > > have not value because he is a priest of the LCC? Better try 
> > other 
> > > > arguments because these just express how small some people 
can 
> > act 
> > > in 
> > > > order to depreciate others.
> > > > > 
> > > > Please re-read that in light of the initial post about 
Tillett 
> > by 
> > > > Pedro. And please don't think I wish to deprecate you; I 
> think 
> > > > you're generally one of the more fair and openminded 
> > participants 
> > > > here. But you've made two black/white blaming/excusing 
> > judgments 
> > > > here that are wrong -- WAY wrong-- on both counts.
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > 
> > > > Paul
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > krishtar wrote:
> > > > > Hello Erica
> > > > > 
> > > > > It is a pity that much of what we have been acquainted, 
> > > > familiarized to, in terms of information about many subjects 
> in 
> > > the 
> > > > Theosophical background and history has been under the form 
of 
> > all 
> > > > this animosity, isn#900;t it?
> > > > > People tend to become very literate but sometimes I gess 
the 
> > > lack 
> > > > of compassion screams at a higher level in the same 
proportion.
> > > > > Although I feel not comfortable to judge anyone#900;s 
> > bahaviour, 
> > > I 
> > > > cannot deny that people are again hurting and being hurt 
back 
> in 
> > > the 
> > > > list.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Krishtar
> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > > From: Erica Letzerich 
> > > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> > > > > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 5:01 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Ecclesiastical associations?
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Guys why do I have the impression you love each other so 
> > much... 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Love is in the air 
> > > > > Oh oh oh 
> > > > > Oh oh oh 
> > > > > Love is in the air 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Erica
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > gregory@z... wrote:
> > > > > Pedro's reference to a folly of my adolescence (i.e. 
> > membership 
> > > for 
> > > > a time of 
> > > > > the Liberal Catholic Church)is hardly a revelation of any 
> > > > significance. It is 
> > > > > explicitly noted in my biography of Leadbeater: p.viii.
> > > > > As for adding "ecclesiastical titles", what ecclesiastical 
> > title 
> > > is 
> > > > held by 
> > > > > someone at the lowest level of the Minor Orders of the 
> Liberal 
> > > > catholic 
> > > > > Church??
> > > > > Should all who offer comments declare, in advance, any 
> > > memberships 
> > > > or 
> > > > > affiliations? If so, why has Pedro not declared that he is 
a 
> > > priest 
> > > > of the 
> > > > > LCC, and about to become a bishop? that he is an employee 
of 
> > the 
> > > > (Adyar) 
> > > > > Theosophical Society? It could be argued that these are 
> > relevant 
> > > > > considerations in evaluating the arguments he is making 
> (and, 
> > in 
> > > > particular, 
> > > > > his refusal to give clear responses to questions about 
> > > Leadbeater).
> > > > > Is he a member of the ES? the ER? of Co-Masonry? should we 
> > check 
> > > > out his time 
> > > > > working at Adyar? 
> > > > > Perhaps we should we seek a complete curriculum vitae of 
> > > everyone 
> > > > posting on 
> > > > > the site?
> > > > > Does anyone care? I certainly don't. My assessment of 
> > arguments 
> > > is 
> > > > based on 
> > > > > the arguments themselves, not on the present or past 
> > > associations 
> > > > of the 
> > > > > person expressing the opinion. But "shooting the 
messenger" 
> is 
> > > an 
> > > > old 
> > > > > political tactic. The gullible are often impressed.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Dr Gregory Tillett
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site!
> > > > > 
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site!
> > > > > 
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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