Theos-Talk Archives (May 2005 Message tt00775)

Dear Erica,
If things are as you say then I would write a full apology and 
gladly accept my having been wrong.
The way my requests for elucidation on this which to me at any rate 
is a very important area have been treated with what seems from my 
standpoint nothing short of contempt.

I acknowledged earlier in my postings that some in house 
publications will sometimes allow these type of articles through, 
this does not seem to be the case with 'the theosophist' magazine 
or 'theosophy in Australia'magazine however.

If anyone can show me examples of these type of articles in the 
theosophist theosophy in Australia or Quest magazines I will gladly 
write an apology and will I have to say be relieved and happy that I 
was wrong.
(The Canadian theosophist as Paul pointed out is another kettle of 
fish all together as anyone who is aware of the history will be well 
aware.)

If things are as you suggest then I only wish my questions and 
concerns could have been treated with a little more compassion and 
brotherly concern by the president (or other society members who may 
have known about my concerns)
The president by the way failed to answer my question to her.

I am no longer a member of the Society as I resigned over this issue.

I suspect that the perception of me now in the society is that of a 
trouble maker and probably would not be very welcome back into the 
fold.

Still we can only act as we perceive at the time to be appropriate.
I genuinely wish the society to be a centre of free and open 
investigation into the Ideal of Brotherhood.
To not voice my concerns would have been to go against my conscience.

This as I have said a few times now is no reflection on general 
membership who by on large are unaware of the history.
Most members seem to me to be genuine seekers and supporters of free 
speech.

Regards

Perry

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Erica Letzerich <eletzerich@y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Dear Perry,
> 
> 
> 
> I think one year now you are coming up again and again with the 
same question, .Already you wrote an email to Mrs Radha Burnier and 
you got an answer which you posted in this forum if my memory is not 
wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> What can I tell you as 16 years member of the Theosophical Society 
is that I never had any difficult in finding any book or article of 
my interest. When you mention about articles you refer to which 
magazine? To the official magazine of the T.S. which is The 
Theosophist? How long are you subscribed to The Theosophist?
> 
> 
> 
> Well I will tell you that in the time I was still settled in 
Brazil the T.S. there was having around 800 members from this I may 
count with my fingers how many T.S. members in Brazil were 
subscribed to The Theosophist. Also here in Greece we have around 80 
members, none is subscribed to the Theosophist. If you are a member 
of the T.S.go in your area and check how many are subscribed to the 
official magazine of the T.S..
> 
> 
> 
> Now every section has its own magazine and in such magazines 
different articles are published in different languages. How you can 
conclude that the editors of all this magazines which are connected 
to Adyar refuse to publish articles comparing Blavatsky and CWL's 
teachings? I will tell you here in Greece is not the case, I was 
even asked to write about it by the editor, eventually I will.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway people here transformed CWL into the Judas of the T.S. soon 
they are going to make a doll of him and throw stones and burn the 
traitor. But other claims that for me are very serious seem of not 
interest for others. As for sample the claims of Judge having medium 
communication with Blavatsky. Blavatsky was extremely against any 
form of medium 
> 
> practices and she promised after her dead that she would not 
contact anyone. Was Judge or Blavatsky a liar? 
> 
> 
> 
> Closing, people they need myths to go on. So they transformed many 
T.S. leaders into holy, others into victims, others into Dugpas, 
others into traitors etc. But they can't see that all those 
theosophists that dedicated themselves to a noble cause, were humans 
with imperfections, with problems, just humans. 
> 
> 
> 
> Erica
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perry Coles <perrycoles@y...> wrote:
> Hello Erica,
> I am not asking the society to take an official position on any 
> teacher.
> I've simply asked, is it true that articles comparing the 
teachings 
> of Blavatsky and her teachers with those of C W Leadbeater are not 
> allowed in official publications of the Adyar society.
> 
> This from what little feedback I have had from the Society appears 
> to be the case as it is not denied.
> 
> As is verified now we know Leadbeater lied about his birth date.
> This and other evidence of him telling lies or making up stories 
> about his past gives students good reason to call into question 
many 
> of his claims and by default his revelations and teachings.
> Writers should have the freedom to comment on this in society 
> publications.
> If it is so well known in the society why is this freedom not 
given 
> to students to publish suchlike articles that comment on these 
facts.
> 
> Other students can always counter any point made by way of letters 
> to the editor.
> 
> I don't think this is complicated it's a straight forward issue.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Perry
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Letzerich" 
> wrote:
> > Dear Perry,
> > 
> > Let's not complicate things that in fact are simple and obvious. 
> > Which information related to the subject I approached you 
consider 
> > valid? To know who are or who are going to be Bishops of the 
LCC? 
> Go 
> > to the site of the LCC and ask there for such information. 
> > 
> > I am not questioning the contribution Dr. Tillett gave to the 
> > Theosophical History in his book. But I do question the open and 
> > deliberately expressions of hostility, which for some may pass 
> > unnoticed but for other more acquainted with some situations is 
> > obvious. 
> > 
> > All the members of the Theosophical Society are very well 
informed 
> > about the controversies related to Leadbeater. Actually when I 
> first 
> > become a member such was probably one of the first information I 
> > had. Even here in Greece that members of the T.S. are somehow 
> > completely disconnected from the reality of the T.S. in the 
world 
> > and have a very poor theosophical literature translated to Greek 
> > they know about such controversies.
> > 
> > Recently Dr. Algeo published some letters related to the life of 
> > Blavatsky. Him and others involved in this publication are now 
> > targets of endless critics and attacks from the side of the 
> > Blavatskyan fundamentalists. 
> > 
> > The history of the T.S. has not only dark spots related to CWL's 
> > life but also to its founders and many other members. And that 
is 
> > why all of them were humans as we are and as such mistakes are a 
> > natural thing. Judge declares to have received mediunic messages 
> of 
> > Blavatsky. While Blavatsky declared she would never contact 
anyone 
> > after she leaves this world. 
> > 
> > The truth is not hidden and it is clear exposed in many books 
and 
> > many writings, and most probably more truths are going to be 
> brought 
> > to light. So it is easy to stick in CWL and his church, while 
> > refusing to see all the other gaps that exist.
> > 
> > 
> > "Would you agree that if certain verifiable information comes to 
> > light that calls into question the veracity of a prominent 
writers 
> > information then the society is morally and duty bound to bring 
> this 
> > to the members attention even if it has repercussions for the 
> > society?"
> > 
> > Now which official position would you like the T.S to take? To 
> > inform all the members that C.W.L. was a mythomaniac, that Judge 
> was 
> > a liar, that Blavatsky offered herself to be a spy and had a 
child 
> > so she never died as a virgin, that Olcott turned his back to 
> > Blavatsky in a moment of great need, that Besant had an affair 
> with 
> > Bernard Shaw and was influenced by CWL, that Arundale wrote 
> articles 
> > praising Hitler before the II war start, that Geoffrey Hodson 
made 
> a 
> > clairvoyant description of the greatness of the Hitler aura. 
> > 
> > Yeah because if the T.S. starts taking official positions pros 
or 
> > contra it will be necessary also to do the same with all the 
> others. 
> > No dear this can't happen and I think for the sake of the T.S. 
as 
> a 
> > society the wisest position is taken, that is of neutrality. All 
> its 
> > members are free to discuss to write and to choose which 
position 
> > they are going to take. Let everyone to judge by their own but 
do 
> > not condemn others for their personal choices, preferences and 
> > religious positions.
> > 
> > Erica 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Perry Coles" 
> 
> > wrote:
> > > Hello Erica,
> > > I cant help but feel that there is a bit of a blind spot here 
on 
> > the 
> > > issue of valid criticism.
> > > 
> > > Would you agree that if certain verifiable information comes 
to 
> > > light that calls into question the veracity of a prominent 
> writers 
> > > information then the society is morally and duty bound to 
bring 
> > this 
> > > to the members attention even if it has repercussions for the 
> > > society?
> > > 
> > > To do this would be noble action not one of shame.
> > > 
> > > Dr Tillett has brought very relevant and important facts to 
bear 
> > on 
> > > the life of Bishop Leadbeater, facts that have important 
> > > implications for those who read his books.
> > > 
> > > As I see it lack of critical comment is not necessarily a sign 
> of 
> > > virtue it can actually be a simple symptom of co dependence 
and 
> a 
> > > dis functional aversion to valid and needed rational debate.
> > > 
> > > In families this type of aversion can lead to extremely 
> > > disempowering and destructive behaviour as any councillor will 
> > tell 
> > > you.
> > > 
> > > A victim of sexual abuse by a family member for example may be 
> > told 
> > > not to say anything as they will cause friction 
and "disharmony" 
> > in 
> > > the family.
> > > It can lead to a conspiracy of silence and allow the most 
> > outrageous 
> > > behaviour to go unchallenged and spread greater disharmony.
> > > (see M Scott Peck's book : People of the lie)
> > > 
> > > This can lead to a deadening of conscience and in theosophical 
> > terms 
> > > mean blocking the impulses from the higher ethical and 
truthful 
> > > energies of Buddhi.
> > > Rather than warm fuzzies the higher Self impulses can cause 
> great 
> > > upset and turmoil for the personality.
> > > 
> > > Remember the motto of the society is "there is no Religion 
> higher 
> > > than Truth".
> > > This is a very high demand and all of us fall short of it.
> > > However I do feel we need to try and promote it as best we can.
> > > You do seem like a person who is genuinely looking to promote 
> what 
> > > is right and true.
> > > 
> > > It is my offering here that the above points can go by 
unchecked 
> > > sometimes and am interested in your comments and point of view.
> > > Regards
> > > 
> > > Regards
> > > 
> > > Perry
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Letzerich" 
> > > wrote:
> > > > I might reconsider my statement about the animosity against 
> > Adyar 
> > > > members. 
> > > > 
> > > > I know as much you know that there is a general prejudice of 
> > some 
> > > > persons towards members of the LCC. What was the point of 
Dr. 
> > > Tillet 
> > > > mentioning that Pedro will be elected a Bishop of the LCC?
> > > > 
> > > > Dr. Tillet not happy went on, saying that Pedro is an 
employee 
> > of 
> > > > Adyar, but he did not mention that before an employee he was 
> and 
> > > is 
> > > > a theosophist dedicated to the cause, without any material 
> > > > possession and the gain of being employee of Adyar does not 
> > confer 
> > > > anyone any material status. On the contrary a series of 
> > sacrifices 
> > > > and losses. But of course Dr. Tillets posts were a try to 
> > > depreciate 
> > > > Pedro's arguments using his status in the T.S. Adyar and the 
> > fact 
> > > > that he is connected to the LCC as factors that could 
> undermine 
> > > his 
> > > > ability to see things and to think. I think this is clear.
> > > > 
> > > > You mentioned that:
> > > > "As one who has no dog in this fight, and who likes Pedro 
very 
> > > much, 
> > > > I still have to tell you that he started this particular 
line 
> of 
> > > > attack and counterattack. Again, what you see is through some
> > > > organizational blinders."
> > > > 
> > > > Well below you may read the normal order of the events. 
> > > > 
> > > > gregory@
> > > > Tue May 24, 2005 4:07 am
> > > > "A correspondent from Perth (Western Australia) advises me 
> that 
> > > > Pedro is to be made a bishop of the Liberal Catholic Church 
> > later 
> > > > this year by the Church's Presiding Bishop, Ian Hooker." Dr 
> > > Gregory 
> > > > Tillett
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/26748
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > prmoliveira" 
> 
> > > > Date: Thu May 26, 2005 4:11 am
> > > > 
> > > > "Few of his readers perhaps know that Dr Tillet was a Clergy 
> in 
> > > Minor
> > > > Orders (Cleric) in the Australian Province of the LCC for 
> several
> > > > years and contributed articles to its magazine 
("Communion")." 
> > > > pedro
> > > > 
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/26793
> > > > 
> > > > Erica
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "kpauljohnson" 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Erica Letzerich 
> > > > 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Dear Krishtar,
> > > > > 
> > > > > > First of all I think that it is clear that there are a 
> high 
> > > > level 
> > > > > of animosity expressed towards the members and dedicated 
> > fellows 
> > > > > connected to the T.S. Adyar. I do not see any members of 
the 
> > > T.S. 
> > > > > Adyar within this forum trying to impose their ideas 
towards 
> > > > others; 
> > > > > on the contrary they defend their point of views with 
> balance. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > Dear Erica,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I think this is profoundly wrong on two counts. Count up 
> all 
> > > the 
> > > > > attacks on non-Adyar Theosophical organizations emanating 
> from 
> > > > Daniel 
> > > > > and Anand, and then reconsider the above statement.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Secondly, consider that many of us with highly critical 
> > > attitudes 
> > > > > toward the Adyar TS and some of its leaders past and 
present 
> > > might 
> > > > > have very positive attitudes toward most of the members we 
> > have 
> > > > > known. (And some of the leaders, e.g. John Coats about 
whom 
> > > nary 
> > > > a 
> > > > > bad word has ever been written here AFAIK.) I can 
certainly 
> > say 
> > > > that 
> > > > > for myself, and would suspect that several others here 
would 
> > > agree.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Nobody is to be condemned to be a priest, to be an 
> employee 
> > of 
> > > > the 
> > > > > T.S. Adyar or not. To use the personal choices of others, 
> > their 
> > > > > religious preferences or their support for an author or 
> other 
> > to 
> > > > try 
> > > > > to depreciate their point of view and opinions it is not a 
> > fair 
> > > > game. 
> > > > > I really did not see the point of Dr. Tillet announcing 
here 
> > in 
> > > > this 
> > > > > forum that Pedro will be a future Bishop of the LCC. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > As one who has no dog in this fight, and who likes Pedro 
> very 
> > > > much, I 
> > > > > still have to tell you that he started this particular 
line 
> of 
> > > > attack 
> > > > > and counterattack. Again, what you see is through some 
> > > > > organizational blinders.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > What he is trying to prove with these posts that Pedro's 
> > > > opinions 
> > > > > have not value because he is a priest of the LCC? Better 
try 
> > > other 
> > > > > arguments because these just express how small some people 
> can 
> > > act 
> > > > in 
> > > > > order to depreciate others.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > Please re-read that in light of the initial post about 
> Tillett 
> > > by 
> > > > > Pedro. And please don't think I wish to deprecate you; I 
> > think 
> > > > > you're generally one of the more fair and openminded 
> > > participants 
> > > > > here. But you've made two black/white blaming/excusing 
> > > judgments 
> > > > > here that are wrong -- WAY wrong-- on both counts.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Paul
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > krishtar wrote:
> > > > > > Hello Erica
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > It is a pity that much of what we have been acquainted, 
> > > > > familiarized to, in terms of information about many 
subjects 
> > in 
> > > > the 
> > > > > Theosophical background and history has been under the 
form 
> of 
> > > all 
> > > > > this animosity, isn#900;t it?
> > > > > > People tend to become very literate but sometimes I gess 
> the 
> > > > lack 
> > > > > of compassion screams at a higher level in the same 
> proportion.
> > > > > > Although I feel not comfortable to judge anyone#900;s 
> > > bahaviour, 
> > > > I 
> > > > > cannot deny that people are again hurting and being hurt 
> back 
> > in 
> > > > the 
> > > > > list.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Krishtar
> > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > > > From: Erica Letzerich 
> > > > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 5:01 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Ecclesiastical associations?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Guys why do I have the impression you love each other so 
> > > much... 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Love is in the air 
> > > > > > Oh oh oh 
> > > > > > Oh oh oh 
> > > > > > Love is in the air 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Erica
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > gregory@z... wrote:
> > > > > > Pedro's reference to a folly of my adolescence (i.e. 
> > > membership 
> > > > for 
> > > > > a time of 
> > > > > > the Liberal Catholic Church)is hardly a revelation of 
any 
> > > > > significance. It is 
> > > > > > explicitly noted in my biography of Leadbeater: p.viii.
> > > > > > As for adding "ecclesiastical titles", what 
ecclesiastical 
> > > title 
> > > > is 
> > > > > held by 
> > > > > > someone at the lowest level of the Minor Orders of the 
> > Liberal 
> > > > > catholic 
> > > > > > Church??
> > > > > > Should all who offer comments declare, in advance, any 
> > > > memberships 
> > > > > or 
> > > > > > affiliations? If so, why has Pedro not declared that he 
is 
> a 
> > > > priest 
> > > > > of the 
> > > > > > LCC, and about to become a bishop? that he is an 
employee 
> of 
> > > the 
> > > > > (Adyar) 
> > > > > > Theosophical Society? It could be argued that these are 
> > > relevant 
> > > > > > considerations in evaluating the arguments he is making 
> > (and, 
> > > in 
> > > > > particular, 
> > > > > > his refusal to give clear responses to questions about 
> > > > Leadbeater).
> > > > > > Is he a member of the ES? the ER? of Co-Masonry? should 
we 
> > > check 
> > > > > out his time 
> > > > > > working at Adyar? 
> > > > > > Perhaps we should we seek a complete curriculum vitae of 
> > > > everyone 
> > > > > posting on 
> > > > > > the site?
> > > > > > Does anyone care? I certainly don't. My assessment of 
> > > arguments 
> > > > is 
> > > > > based on 
> > > > > > the arguments themselves, not on the present or past 
> > > > associations 
> > > > > of the 
> > > > > > person expressing the opinion. But "shooting the 
> messenger" 
> > is 
> > > > an 
> > > > > old 
> > > > > > political tactic. The gullible are often impressed.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Dr Gregory Tillett
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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