Theos-Talk Archives (April 2005 Message tt01787)

No, but google's description of the book seems pretty interesting.

-Mark H.

On 4/26/05, Iain <ibse03888@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> I agree,whole-heartedly, anyway back to what we were talking about, have you
> read Sir James Fraser's The GOLDEN BOUGH, which is the study of magic and
> religion, its a masive volume but covers how societies have developed.
> cheers Iain
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Hamilton Jr." <waking.adept@gmail.com>
> To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 12:24 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Mental Health issues - ancient meets modern
> 
> >
> > Thank you Iain, I appreciate your response. I came here to share my
> > experience and join in the discussion, after all.
> >
> > Terrie, the topic is beginning to degenerate more into personal
> > attacks rather than Theosophical discussion. Mind if we both just drop
> > it?
> >
> > -Mark H.
> >
> > On 4/26/05, Iain <ibse03888@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> The history of prophets, seers &etc when the state of their prophesies
> >> are
> >> analysed there does seem to be a link ,Joan of Arc Heard Voices The bible
> >> is
> >> full of similar activities.In many cultures these people are revered
> >> Epilepsy seems to be a common form in which "visions and soothes" have
> >> manifested ,Mindful that Epilepsy is not a mental illness but a build up
> >> of
> >> electrical impulses that build up in the brain that has to be discharged
> >> (Major Episode) Many civilizations and societies throughout all the
> >> continents of the world have treated those with a respect as priest, or
> >> priest/king, Speaking in tongues is common ,the visionary dream also
> >> common
> >> and the ability to interperate the phenomenon was/is considered highlyin
> >> many religions. The boundary between sane/insanity is very thin indeed.
> >> Mental illness or stability of the mind, think of the state of some
> >> writers/artists and what they have produced e.g Van Gogh,and many
> >> others.To
> >> dismiss someone just because they have a mental problem ,is wrong and
> >> condesending.It is a part of Theosophy whether some like it or not.
> >> ,keep on writing Mark
> >> cheers Iain
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Mark Hamilton Jr." <waking.adept@gmail.com>
> >> To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:06 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Mental Health issues - ancient meets modern
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Serious question here, not meant in sarcasm,
> >> >
> >> > How is it that you consider your spirituality more valid than anyone
> >> > else's?
> >> >
> >> > And a few facts to consider:
> >> > 1. About your comment on Schizophrenia. When people hear voices/sounds
> >> > that are from this illness, they will think that they are actual, real
> >> > sounds, and will literally believe they came from their environment
> >> > rather than their own minds. They will also say incoherent things that
> >> > only they, themselves, think has meaning, (for instance, usually
> >> > people with psychosis will try and make up their own language on the
> >> > spot).
> >> >
> >> > When you throw around this term so loosely, you are basically stating
> >> > that you do not know what the illness is. Please do not do this, it is
> >> > an extraordinary of ignorance.
> >> >
> >> > 2. Dellusions are lies that people will begin to believe in after a
> >> > period of time, and they will gather evidence to support it in any
> >> > means necessary. Quite the contrary in my case, as I have gathered
> >> > evidence both for and against my case, and I am not blindly following
> >> > my beliefs. And I have plainly stated this in my introductory message.
> >> >
> >> > What you are implicating by using these terms so liberally, is that
> >> > practically anyone who had any contact with the masters is not only a
> >> > fraud, but mentally incompetant.
> >> >
> >> > I can honestly say you have no advanced knowlege of the conditions
> >> > that you appear to be diagnosing other people on the list with.
> >> >
> >> > -Mark H.
> >> >
> >> > On 4/26/05, thalprin <thalprin@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@y...> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Murray Stentiford <opt-
> >> >> mas@s...>
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> > > At 15:17 26/04/2005, "thalprin" <thalprin@y...>wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > >Murray interesting rap I'm sure Mark and Cass will ejoy it -but-
> >> >> I
> >> >> > > >have no mental illness, depression/anxiety/panic attacks -
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I'm pleased to hear that you do not have any of these but in
> >> >> case
> >> >> > you
> >> >> > > thought so, I was not making any such point. I became aware of
> >> >> > this
> >> >> > > discussion only yesterday, so am not speaking to stages of it
> >> >> > before then.
> >> >> > > However, things like EFT have had excellent results with
> >> >> > depression,
> >> >> > > anxiety and panic attacks, as in the water phobia case in my
> >> >> last
> >> >> > message.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > >My opinion is, ifn you have a problem, fix it or -yup- you have
> >> >> a
> >> >> > > >problem.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > And that is one of the advantages of EFT etc - they can be used
> >> >> on
> >> >> > oneself
> >> >> > > (at your own responsibility), though it sometimes pays to have
> >> >> an
> >> >> > > experienced practitioner because they can help in unearthing
> >> >> > obscure or
> >> >> > > intense issues.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > >I'm also not particularlly interested in discussing folks'
> >> >> mental
> >> >> > > >health/illnesses as if it's Theosophy.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Suit yourself, but Theosophy (in a broad sense, not some one
> >> >> > author's,
> >> >> > > necessarily) is a framework for approaching anything in this
> >> >> > phenomenal
> >> >> > > world, because of its fundamental nature. IMO, mental health
> >> >> need
> >> >> > not be
> >> >> > > excluded from discussion on this list as long as the
> >> >> Theosophical
> >> >> > relevance
> >> >> > > is demonstrated.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Yes, I think psychology/psychiatics is an interesting field -but-
> >> >> I
> >> >> > don't think that mental illness is truly what the study (of
> >> >> Theosphy) is about.
> >> >> > For example, when it gets down to encouraging a/o abaiting sick
> >> >> > people with denial and delusions efforting at using/abusing a
> >> >> system
> >> >> > as a means of enabling and furthering their own illnesses. That's
> >> >> a
> >> >> > whole different ball game.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It happens alot, it's fairly common. The deluded mind a/o unfit
> >> >> > mentality will often reach for straws instead of bucking up and
> >> >> > fixing the problem. In these instances, these are emotional
> >> >> > matters. "Oh, I hear voices, I must be a master" "Oh, I suffer
> >> >> > from this/that, must be the world is quickening." Truth is much
> >> >> > more likely AND most instances that the person is
> >> >> > shcizo/pathological.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > So, no, I don't think Theosophy is nor aspires to be an enabler of
> >> >> > the ill fit/ill minded.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> The emotional a/o haughty levels kooks will stoop to to try and
> >> >> protect their delusions is also sad and bothersome I think.
> >> >>
> >> >> Honestly, I feel quite so for them when they that blind.
> >> >> +It's hard to have a real discussion (let alone a fruitful debate)
> >> >> with kooks as well. They kinda insist on demonstration their
> >> >> ignorance/arrogance (ill wit) often with long emotional dramas and
> >> >> out right rude behaviors.
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > This isn't hard; mental illness has a whole range of aspects
> >> >> that
> >> >> > Theosophy
> >> >> > > embraces, eg karma, the different energy bodies and principles
> >> >> in
> >> >> > the human
> >> >> > > constitution, the potential for healing, the opportunities for
> >> >> > service that
> >> >> > > illness provides, the nature of incarnation and the limitations
> >> >> > that it
> >> >> > > imposes along with the opportunities for self-expression.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > See above.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > I don't know where you're coming from, but part of the
> >> >> difficulty
> >> >> > with
> >> >> > > modern Theosophy, IMO, is that it has distanced itself from
> >> >> > psychology for
> >> >> > > reasons that were very good in the past, but are weaker today.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Psychology in a broad sense, would cross-fertilise magnificently
> >> >> > with
> >> >> > > Theosophy if people who knew both would help it to happen. This
> >> >> > doesn't
> >> >> > > have to be unscientific, either. Too many scientists, in my
> >> >> > experience,
> >> >> > > fail in their adherence to scientific method by stating that if
> >> >> > they can't
> >> >> > > observe something with the 5 physical senses or physical
> >> >> > extensions of
> >> >> > > them, then it can't exist.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That's hardly the point as you well know but feel free to believe
> >> >> > a/o insist that you feel it is.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Believe it or not, I've seen and heard this.
> >> >> > > It's scientific tribalism, comparable with the worst aspects of
> >> >> > religion
> >> >> > > that they claim to have left behind. Thankfully, the bridge
> >> >> > between science
> >> >> > > and spirituality is being built from both sides these days at an
> >> >> > increasing
> >> >> > > rate.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I see this from the other side. I myself am very level headed and
> >> >> > fairly well learned AND quite spiritual as well. That is in part
> >> >> > why it is so easy for me to recognize a kook when I see/hear one.
> >> >> > It is the kooks in my opinion that bring most of damage to this
> >> >> > effort at bridging. They unrealistic in their persuits, and
> >> >> > emotional backet cases mostly, with very little sewlf control,
> >> >> whom
> >> >> > are self deluded about many things, including who they are and
> >> >> what
> >> >> > they think they know/experience. They run to these fringe studies
> >> >> > a/o religions instead of seeking proper medical attention. Those
> >> >> > less experieced, sadly enough, don't often have the knowledge a/o
> >> >> > the understanding to properly identify so they spread their
> >> >> deludion
> >> >> > around and ultimately create alot of unreal expectation as they
> >> >> > misguiding AND the misguide bothers me too because it is so
> >> >> > completely inaccurate - it certainly takes more time to clean up
> >> >> and
> >> >> > resolve than it was nor ever will be worth.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I have a degree in physics, but I see little need for the
> >> >> > > theoso-phobias (new word?!) that a lot of scientists still
> >> >> exhibit.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Agreed. Again, the reputation some studies have is most often
> >> >> > directly correlative to the kooks whom have degraded it.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > > I can say I'm not surprised
> >> >> > > >that some of the folks who've expressed what I consider
> >> >> > unrealistic
> >> >> > > >idealisms to begin with are now confessing/conferring that they
> >> >> > suffer
> >> >> > > >from anxiety/depression, so on. These matters often walk hand
> >> >> in
> >> >> > > >hand.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Indeed, and an awareness of the nature of the human shadow, in a
> >> >> > Jungian
> >> >> > > kind of sense, would illuminate a lot of Theosophy and
> >> >> > Theosophists if they
> >> >> > > would open themselves to the reality of it. It is an important
> >> >> > aspect of
> >> >> > > the spiritual path, to encounter one's own dark side and
> >> >> discover
> >> >> > how to
> >> >> > > release and heal it, as appropriate to each aspect.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Honestly, for some of these folks you're talking about lifetimes
> >> >> > because it certainly aint happening this time around. They too
> >> >> > immature, they have too little insight, they too ego and deluded
> >> >> > lost already to straighten it out any time soon. So young a/o
> >> >> > immature are they a/o some of these folks that you might as well
> >> >> be
> >> >> > comparing apples to oranges.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > People forget, there isn't a quick fix.
> >> >> > The question we ask ourselves as we observe is just how many will
> >> >> > they need/want to take down with them while they sinking while
> >> >> they
> >> >> > insisting they flying .
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It's quite normal to
> >> >> > > have idealism as the lamp drawing one on, alongside with denser
> >> >> > psychic
> >> >> > > accretions from the past of one kind or another. As the latter
> >> >> > come into
> >> >> > > view - and often this is painful - it becomes possible to let
> >> >> them
> >> >> > go or
> >> >> > > transmute them.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I feel deluded folks do find it painful to realize they are
> >> >> > deluded. It's just much more fun to life with a giant ego
> >> >> illusion
> >> >> > than to sink their teeth into real study.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Typical enough it can be like asking a baby to religuish a blankey.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Also, as a side note, please don't assume I'm a materialist just
> >> >> > because I have actual research standards, that's like a ploy for
> >> >> > kooky people who've nothing better to reason.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > One way to describe the path is as an approach to integration,
> >> >> and
> >> >> > this
> >> >> > > refers to a whole huge process of self-discovery, as well as
> >> >> > discovery of
> >> >> > > what one is not. By integration, I mean a balanced activation of
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > > different aspects of our being, which can be conveniently
> >> >> > summarised as
> >> >> > > mental, emotional, spiritual and physical, in healthy
> >> >> relationship
> >> >> > to each
> >> >> > > other.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Agreed however I do not feel that a balanced view for myself is
> >> >> > gonna include including kooks nonsense into my scope. I have no
> >> >> > interest in setting myself up to become deluded any time soon NOR
> >> >> > tomorrow.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I consider EFT and many of the other energy psychology tools to
> >> >> be
> >> >> > > efficient ways to release people from suffering and trauma and
> >> >> > limiting
> >> >> > > patterns of the past, freeing the spirit within. This should
> >> >> > appeal to
> >> >> > > anyone with a bit of Bodhisattva in them, to those who are tired
> >> >> > of hurting
> >> >> > > themselves and others, and to those who might want to save a bit
> >> >> > of money
> >> >> > > in the health system.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Ok, whatever.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > Murray
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Mark Hamilton Jr.
> >> > waking.adept@gmail.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mark Hamilton Jr.
> > waking.adept@gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Mark Hamilton Jr.
waking.adept@gmail.com