Theos-Talk Archives (April 2005 Message tt01753)

Thank you Iain, I appreciate your response. I came here to share my
experience and join in the discussion, after all.

Terrie, the topic is beginning to degenerate more into personal
attacks rather than Theosophical discussion. Mind if we both just drop
it?

-Mark H.

On 4/26/05, Iain <ibse03888@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> The history of prophets, seers &etc when the state of their prophesies are
> analysed there does seem to be a link ,Joan of Arc Heard Voices The bibleis
> full of similar activities.In many cultures these people are revered
> Epilepsy seems to be a common form in which "visions and soothes" have
> manifested ,Mindful that Epilepsy is not a mental illness but a build up of
> electrical impulses that build up in the brain that has to be discharged
> (Major Episode) Many civilizations and societies throughout all the
> continents of the world have treated those with a respect as priest, or
> priest/king, Speaking in tongues is common ,the visionary dream also common
> and the ability to interperate the phenomenon was/is considered highly in
> many religions. The boundary between sane/insanity is very thin indeed.
> Mental illness or stability of the mind, think of the state of some
> writers/artists and what they have produced e.g Van Gogh,and many others.To
> dismiss someone just because they have a mental problem ,is wrong and
> condesending.It is a part of Theosophy whether some like it or not.
> ,keep on writing Mark
> cheers Iain
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Hamilton Jr." <waking.adept@gmail.com>
> To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:06 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Mental Health issues - ancient meets modern
> 
> >
> > Serious question here, not meant in sarcasm,
> >
> > How is it that you consider your spirituality more valid than anyone
> > else's?
> >
> > And a few facts to consider:
> > 1. About your comment on Schizophrenia. When people hear voices/sounds
> > that are from this illness, they will think that they are actual, real
> > sounds, and will literally believe they came from their environment
> > rather than their own minds. They will also say incoherent things that
> > only they, themselves, think has meaning, (for instance, usually
> > people with psychosis will try and make up their own language on the
> > spot).
> >
> > When you throw around this term so loosely, you are basically stating
> > that you do not know what the illness is. Please do not do this, it is
> > an extraordinary of ignorance.
> >
> > 2. Dellusions are lies that people will begin to believe in after a
> > period of time, and they will gather evidence to support it in any
> > means necessary. Quite the contrary in my case, as I have gathered
> > evidence both for and against my case, and I am not blindly following
> > my beliefs. And I have plainly stated this in my introductory message.
> >
> > What you are implicating by using these terms so liberally, is that
> > practically anyone who had any contact with the masters is not only a
> > fraud, but mentally incompetant.
> >
> > I can honestly say you have no advanced knowlege of the conditions
> > that you appear to be diagnosing other people on the list with.
> >
> > -Mark H.
> >
> > On 4/26/05, thalprin <thalprin@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@y...> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Murray Stentiford <opt-
> >> mas@s...>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > > At 15:17 26/04/2005, "thalprin" <thalprin@y...>wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > >Murray interesting rap I'm sure Mark and Cass will ejoy it -but-
> >> I
> >> > > >have no mental illness, depression/anxiety/panic attacks -
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm pleased to hear that you do not have any of these but in
> >> case
> >> > you
> >> > > thought so, I was not making any such point. I became aware of
> >> > this
> >> > > discussion only yesterday, so am not speaking to stages of it
> >> > before then.
> >> > > However, things like EFT have had excellent results with
> >> > depression,
> >> > > anxiety and panic attacks, as in the water phobia case in my
> >> last
> >> > message.
> >> > >
> >> > > >My opinion is, ifn you have a problem, fix it or -yup- you have
> >> a
> >> > > >problem.
> >> > >
> >> > > And that is one of the advantages of EFT etc - they can be used
> >> on
> >> > oneself
> >> > > (at your own responsibility), though it sometimes pays to have
> >> an
> >> > > experienced practitioner because they can help in unearthing
> >> > obscure or
> >> > > intense issues.
> >> > >
> >> > > >I'm also not particularlly interested in discussing folks'
> >> mental
> >> > > >health/illnesses as if it's Theosophy.
> >> > >
> >> > > Suit yourself, but Theosophy (in a broad sense, not some one
> >> > author's,
> >> > > necessarily) is a framework for approaching anything in this
> >> > phenomenal
> >> > > world, because of its fundamental nature. IMO, mental health
> >> need
> >> > not be
> >> > > excluded from discussion on this list as long as the
> >> Theosophical
> >> > relevance
> >> > > is demonstrated.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Yes, I think psychology/psychiatics is an interesting field -but-
> >> I
> >> > don't think that mental illness is truly what the study (of
> >> Theosphy) is about.
> >> > For example, when it gets down to encouraging a/o abaiting sick
> >> > people with denial and delusions efforting at using/abusing a
> >> system
> >> > as a means of enabling and furthering their own illnesses. That's
> >> a
> >> > whole different ball game.
> >> >
> >> > It happens alot, it's fairly common. The deluded mind a/o unfit
> >> > mentality will often reach for straws instead of bucking up and
> >> > fixing the problem. In these instances, these are emotional
> >> > matters. "Oh, I hear voices, I must be a master" "Oh, I suffer
> >> > from this/that, must be the world is quickening." Truth is much
> >> > more likely AND most instances that the person is
> >> > shcizo/pathological.
> >> >
> >> > So, no, I don't think Theosophy is nor aspires to be an enabler of
> >> > the ill fit/ill minded.
> >> >
> >>
> >> The emotional a/o haughty levels kooks will stoop to to try and
> >> protect their delusions is also sad and bothersome I think.
> >>
> >> Honestly, I feel quite so for them when they that blind.
> >> +It's hard to have a real discussion (let alone a fruitful debate)
> >> with kooks as well. They kinda insist on demonstration their
> >> ignorance/arrogance (ill wit) often with long emotional dramas and
> >> out right rude behaviors.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > This isn't hard; mental illness has a whole range of aspects
> >> that
> >> > Theosophy
> >> > > embraces, eg karma, the different energy bodies and principles
> >> in
> >> > the human
> >> > > constitution, the potential for healing, the opportunities for
> >> > service that
> >> > > illness provides, the nature of incarnation and the limitations
> >> > that it
> >> > > imposes along with the opportunities for self-expression.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > See above.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > I don't know where you're coming from, but part of the
> >> difficulty
> >> > with
> >> > > modern Theosophy, IMO, is that it has distanced itself from
> >> > psychology for
> >> > > reasons that were very good in the past, but are weaker today.
> >> > >
> >> > > Psychology in a broad sense, would cross-fertilise magnificently
> >> > with
> >> > > Theosophy if people who knew both would help it to happen. This
> >> > doesn't
> >> > > have to be unscientific, either. Too many scientists, in my
> >> > experience,
> >> > > fail in their adherence to scientific method by stating that if
> >> > they can't
> >> > > observe something with the 5 physical senses or physical
> >> > extensions of
> >> > > them, then it can't exist.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > That's hardly the point as you well know but feel free to believe
> >> > a/o insist that you feel it is.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Believe it or not, I've seen and heard this.
> >> > > It's scientific tribalism, comparable with the worst aspects of
> >> > religion
> >> > > that they claim to have left behind. Thankfully, the bridge
> >> > between science
> >> > > and spirituality is being built from both sides these days at an
> >> > increasing
> >> > > rate.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I see this from the other side. I myself am very level headed and
> >> > fairly well learned AND quite spiritual as well. That is in part
> >> > why it is so easy for me to recognize a kook when I see/hear one.
> >> > It is the kooks in my opinion that bring most of damage to this
> >> > effort at bridging. They unrealistic in their persuits, and
> >> > emotional backet cases mostly, with very little sewlf control,
> >> whom
> >> > are self deluded about many things, including who they are and
> >> what
> >> > they think they know/experience. They run to these fringe studies
> >> > a/o religions instead of seeking proper medical attention. Those
> >> > less experieced, sadly enough, don't often have the knowledge a/o
> >> > the understanding to properly identify so they spread their
> >> deludion
> >> > around and ultimately create alot of unreal expectation as they
> >> > misguiding AND the misguide bothers me too because it is so
> >> > completely inaccurate - it certainly takes more time to clean up
> >> and
> >> > resolve than it was nor ever will be worth.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I have a degree in physics, but I see little need for the
> >> > > theoso-phobias (new word?!) that a lot of scientists still
> >> exhibit.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Agreed. Again, the reputation some studies have is most often
> >> > directly correlative to the kooks whom have degraded it.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > > I can say I'm not surprised
> >> > > >that some of the folks who've expressed what I consider
> >> > unrealistic
> >> > > >idealisms to begin with are now confessing/conferring that they
> >> > suffer
> >> > > >from anxiety/depression, so on. These matters often walk hand
> >> in
> >> > > >hand.
> >> > >
> >> > > Indeed, and an awareness of the nature of the human shadow, in a
> >> > Jungian
> >> > > kind of sense, would illuminate a lot of Theosophy and
> >> > Theosophists if they
> >> > > would open themselves to the reality of it. It is an important
> >> > aspect of
> >> > > the spiritual path, to encounter one's own dark side and
> >> discover
> >> > how to
> >> > > release and heal it, as appropriate to each aspect.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Honestly, for some of these folks you're talking about lifetimes
> >> > because it certainly aint happening this time around. They too
> >> > immature, they have too little insight, they too ego and deluded
> >> > lost already to straighten it out any time soon. So young a/o
> >> > immature are they a/o some of these folks that you might as well
> >> be
> >> > comparing apples to oranges.
> >> >
> >> > People forget, there isn't a quick fix.
> >> > The question we ask ourselves as we observe is just how many will
> >> > they need/want to take down with them while they sinking while
> >> they
> >> > insisting they flying .
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > It's quite normal to
> >> > > have idealism as the lamp drawing one on, alongside with denser
> >> > psychic
> >> > > accretions from the past of one kind or another. As the latter
> >> > come into
> >> > > view - and often this is painful - it becomes possible to let
> >> them
> >> > go or
> >> > > transmute them.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I feel deluded folks do find it painful to realize they are
> >> > deluded. It's just much more fun to life with a giant ego
> >> illusion
> >> > than to sink their teeth into real study.
> >> >
> >> > Typical enough it can be like asking a baby to religuish a blankey.
> >> >
> >> > Also, as a side note, please don't assume I'm a materialist just
> >> > because I have actual research standards, that's like a ploy for
> >> > kooky people who've nothing better to reason.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > One way to describe the path is as an approach to integration,
> >> and
> >> > this
> >> > > refers to a whole huge process of self-discovery, as well as
> >> > discovery of
> >> > > what one is not. By integration, I mean a balanced activation of
> >> > the
> >> > > different aspects of our being, which can be conveniently
> >> > summarised as
> >> > > mental, emotional, spiritual and physical, in healthy
> >> relationship
> >> > to each
> >> > > other.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Agreed however I do not feel that a balanced view for myself is
> >> > gonna include including kooks nonsense into my scope. I have no
> >> > interest in setting myself up to become deluded any time soon NOR
> >> > tomorrow.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > I consider EFT and many of the other energy psychology tools to
> >> be
> >> > > efficient ways to release people from suffering and trauma and
> >> > limiting
> >> > > patterns of the past, freeing the spirit within. This should
> >> > appeal to
> >> > > anyone with a bit of Bodhisattva in them, to those who are tired
> >> > of hurting
> >> > > themselves and others, and to those who might want to save a bit
> >> > of money
> >> > > in the health system.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Ok, whatever.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Murray
> >>
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mark Hamilton Jr.
> > waking.adept@gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Mark Hamilton Jr.
waking.adept@gmail.com