Theos-Talk Archives (February 2005 Message tt00553)

Konstantin Zaitzev <kay_ziatz@yahoo.com> wrote:

>If under "astralism" you mean an emotional and devotional attitude, it's amerit of Besant,
>at least it seems so from some of her lectures. 
>And she was the Boss, not Leadbeater or Hodson who undertook astral investigations.



Annie Besant was for a long period a puppet of Leadbeater in matters related to the 
Theosophical Society. About astralism I do not mean emotional or devotionalattitude
but promotion of illusions based on clairvoyance investigations and deluding teachings 
mostly exposed in the works of CWL and after continued by Geoffrey Hodson. 
Well Geoffrey Hodson description of the great beautiful aura of Hitler, before the war
started is somewhere in one of The Theosophist and when I have time I will find it.

>> To use the crisis Krishnamurti had when he lost his brother as a parameter to measure
>>his level of knowledge is but cruel.

>Nevertheless, to test the knowledge by practice is the only objective method. 



And which kind of knowledge you would expect him to express when he lost his brother? 
Detachment, do not suffer because death is an illusion? Don’t you know that spiritual 
awakening is followed by deep crisis and the triggers can be thousands of different reasons.
Don’t you know that even disciples that have reached a elevated stage of initiation pass
through crisis. To try to find weakness in this level it is not only cruel but an effort to 
contradict human nature.



>Is it an older work? 


I never quote Krishnamurti before he dissolved the order.

>Geoffrey Hodson wrote:
>"Krishnamurti himself thereafter changed the Objects of the Order of 
>the Star in the East from, in effect, "To prepare for the coming of the Lord" to 
>"To serve the World Teacher now that He is in our midst." I, myself, more than once 
>heard Krishnamurti affirm that the great Teacher was now here and that the"Coming" 
>had actually occurred."

Krishnamurti was taken away from his family and convinced by persons like Leadbeater
and Annie Besant, (we talk about persons with great charisma) that he was going to be the
vehicle of Maytreya. Do you know how easy is to influence a child? Do you know how easy
is to fill up the mind of a child with ideas that may be rooted in the mindduring quite long 
time? So what you try to say with the above quote, that may be Krishnamurtibelieved to be
what he was told most part of childhood and adolescence. 

>> It seems strange a materialist to admit such powers as the
>> ones mentioned above and to speak about immortality.



>There is a school of thought which has many adherents here which teaches that all the
>subtle bodies are just "auras" or "fields" around physical body which is their base. 
>They teach that the physical existence is only of importance, and that after death these >fields inevitably dissipate. Some also teach that they knowthe method how to postpone 
>that keeping them in order and reach immortality by obscession of a new body. 
>Though it is a school of magic, it is materialistic nevertheless. In the Soviet Union 
>materialism was the official doctrine, but the telepathy was sometimes admitted as 
>"brain radio connection".




And what this has to do with Krishnamurti? Was him promoting teachings similar the 
ones you mention above? Was him promoting immortality by obsession of a newbody? 
Or you try to tell me that even if he spoke about immortality he was a materialist? I am 
open to change my opinion at any moment if you have an argument with base, which 
I have seen none until now.





>> "Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God"
>> Mahatma M.



>It's not M, it's K.H., and later he writes:
>"Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable law", while Krishnamurti identifies 
>them, denying both. Noteworthy that one can find in the works by Krishnamurti 
almost every statement for or against anything. Well, some call it "free-thinking". :)

Thank you for the correction. So what you found in the teachings of Krishnamurti? Arguments against superstitions created by religions and gurus? Youemphasize his arguments against any form of psychological dependency to a guru or to a group or to an organization. Was he wrong? But you do not mention that the 
key note of his teachings is the incentive to find the truth through a process of self knowledge
and try to develop a consciousness of non duality, because only through experience one 
can approach the truth. By the way tell me which guru can go within yourself and transform 
your nature? Such is an individual task. 

“Truth will stand without inspiration from Gods or Spirits, and better still 
will stand in spite of them all; "angels" whispering generally but falsehoods 
and adding to the stock of superstition.”  
KH - Letter No. 27 Received Simla, Autumn, 1881.



>> His teachings are basic of buddhic nature.





>I also believed so 10 years ago and even wrote about it in theos-l.
>But later when I knew more about his life and read more of his works >I changed my mind. Maybe it was so called "atlantean" way when one >jumps from astral right to buddhi, passing manas by, but that system >was practiced under dogmatic religious instruction, where free->thinking was almost impossible. After that a disciple reached direct >knowledge and could instruct others and lead them. But this implies conception of guru.

My journey was exactly the contrary of yours, 
I knew about his life more than14 years ago and I was anti-Krishnamurtian. 
But after reading his lectures and reflecting in a neutral way about everything that happened in his life and realizing the great trip Leadbeater was in I started admiring not only Krishnamurti teachings but also his personality. He did but a great favour for the T.S.when he dissolved the order. Hisdecision to dissolve a movement that at the time 
had more than 50.000 followers is not something that everyone can do. His only choice 
was but to break completely with T.S.. And his teachings in no form contradict theosophy:

Without freedom from the past, there is no freedom at all, because the mindis never new, fresh, innocent. Krishnamurti 

>> But truth independent of personal opinions is that Krishnamurti was a great inquirer.

>It is so, but have he found anything?

Was him supposed to find anything?



>Most of his lectures are just series of statements. Yet that 
>strategy enabled Krishnamurti to became respectable person unlike >HPB & CWL and join the philosophical establishment. No one will say 
>that Krishnamurti or Nietzsche or any other "philosopher" of that 
>kind were charlatains!

There is no a competition between Blavatsky and Krishnamurti going on. 
Blavatsky had a path Krishnamurti another, and they tried but to help and to inspire. 
If any technique alone and any guru is supposed be the path for the truth all India would 
be enlightened by now, they have been practicing techniques for thousands of years now
and following gurus. No one guru, no one teaching, no one religion, and no one

organization could bring solution for the major problems of humanity, couldbring peace to the world, could make universal brotherhood a practical reality. So if me saying so, and Krishnamurti said the same in different wordsis but a fallacy, prove me the contrary please.

 

Erica Letzerich

 


Konstantin Zaitzev <kay_ziatz@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Erica Letzerich wrote:

> Krishnamurti teachings helped in a great level the T.S. to
> be free of the astralism Leadbeater was promoting.

Astral level is anyway a bit higher than a physical. Most people (at 
least here in Russia, but I guess it is so everywhere) who condemn 
everything astral are quite unable to raise above physical plane 
themselves, even to astral, not saying about mental and buddhic. So 
they despise the pudding which they have never tasted.
If under "astralism" you mean an emotional and devotional attitude, 
it's a merit of Besant, at least it seems so from some of her 
lectures. And she was the Boss, not Leadbeater or Hodson who undertook 
astral investigations.

> To use the crisis Krishnamurti had when he lost his brother
> as a parameter to measure his level of knowledge is but cruel.

Nevertheless, to test the knowledge by practice is the only objective 
method. Many people preach about God, immortality and things like that 
but are materialists inside, for they afraid of death and strive to 
material posessions. Many christians "believe" in what Bible teaches, 
but do quite the reverse.

> Life After Death - Krishnamurti

Is it an older work? In his earlier works and talks he definitely 
wrote that he really came as a world teacher and wanted to lead people 
to the feet of Lord Buddha. See Hymn to Lord Buddha published in 
"Theosophist" somewhere circa 1996. This hymn was written in 1927, 
when Leabeater was out in Australia for more than 10 years.

Geoffrey Hodson wrote:
"Krishnamurti himself thereafter changed the Objects of the Order of 
the Star in the East from, in effect, "To prepare for the coming of 
the Lord" to "To serve the World Teacher now that He is in our midst." 
I, myself, more than once heard Krishnamurti affirm that the great 
Teacher was now here and that the "Coming" had actually occurred."

> It seems strange a materialist to admit such powers as the
> ones mentioned above and to speak about immortality.

There is a school of thought which has many adherents here which 
teaches that all the subtle bodies are just "auras" or "fields" around 
physical body which is their base. They teach that the physical 
existence is only of importance, and that after death these fields 
inevitably dissipate. Some also teach that they know the method how to 
postpone that keeping them in order and reach immortality by 
obscession of a new body. Though it is a school of magic, it is 
materialistic nevertheless. In the Soviet Union materialism was the 
official doctrine, but the telepathy was sometimes admitted as "brain 
radio connection".

> "Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God"
> Mahatma M.

It's not M, it's K.H., and later he writes:
"Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable law", while 
Krishnamurti identifies them, denying both. Noteworthy that one can 
find in the works by Krishnamurti almost every statement for or 
against anything. Well, some call it "free-thinking". :)

> His teachings are basic of buddhic nature

I also believed so 10 years ago and even wrote about it in theos-l.
But later when I knew more about his life and read more of his works I 
changed my mind.
Maybe it was so called "atlantean" way when one jumps from astral 
right to buddhi, passing manas by, but that system was practiced under 
dogmatic religious instruction, where free-thinking was almost 
impossible. After that a disciple reached direct knowledge and could 
instruct others and lead them. But this implies conception of guru.

> But truth independent of personal opinions is that Krishnamurti was 
a great inquirer.

It is so, but have he found anything?
He had the full right to dissociate himself from the theosophy and 
became an independent philosopher, but I never knew (though I may be 
not informed) that he could advocate his position in a philosophical 
dispute with a representative of any other school of thought. All 
conversations which I have read or seen by video were rather the talks 
with admirers. Nor didn't I seen any his living follower who could do 
so, neither I haven't seen those who succeeded to perform the 
transformation which he preached. To any agument the followers reply: 
oh, you are reasoning, it's all the mind games, you should change. 
Sounds much alike to "come around to Hank's way of thinking", and so 
we return to some dogmatic system from which we were trying to escape. 
Most of his lectures are just series of statements. Yet that strategy 
enabled Krishnamurti to became respectable person unlike HPB & CWL and 
join the philosophical establishment. No one will say that 
Krishnamurti or Nietzsche or any other "philosopher" of that kind were 
charlatains!






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Erica Letzerich .'.






		
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