Theos-Talk Archives (February 2005 Message tt00556)

I am sorry I am sending again this e-mail because when I was editing 
it had to answer a phone call and probably I press send accidentaly.

> Konstantin Zaitzev <kay_ziatz@y...> wrote:

>If under "astralism" you mean an emotional and devotional attitude, 
>it's a merit of Besant, at least it seems so from some of her 
>lectures.And she was the Boss, not Leadbeater or Hodson who 
>undertook astral investigations.

Annie Besant was for a long period a puppet of Leadbeater in matters 
related to the Theosophical Society. About astralism I do not mean 
emotional or devotional attitude but promotion of illusions based on 
clairvoyance investigations and deluding teachings mostly exposed in 
the works of CWL and after continued by Geoffrey Hodson.Well 
Geoffrey Hodson description of the great beautiful aura of Hitler 
(before the war)is somewhere in one of The Theosophist. 
(I am without time to search for it, but please if anyone have this 
quote I would like to get it.)

>> To use the crisis Krishnamurti had when he lost his brother as a 
parameter to measure his level of knowledge is but cruel.

>Nevertheless, to test the knowledge by practice is the only 
>objective method.

And which kind of knowledge you would expect him to express when he 
lost his brother? Detachment, do not suffer because death is an 
illusion? Don't you know that spiritual awakening is followed by 
deep crisis and the triggers can be thousands of different reasons.
Don't you know that even disciples that have reached a elevated 
stage of initiation pass through crisis. To try to find weakness in 
this level it is not only cruel but an effort to contradict human 
nature.

>Is it an older work?

I never quote Krishnamurti before he dissolved the order.

>Geoffrey Hodson wrote:
>"Krishnamurti himself thereafter changed the Objects of the Order of
>the Star in the East from, in effect, "To prepare for the coming of 
>the Lord" to "To serve the World Teacher now that He is in our 
>midst." I, myself, more than once heard Krishnamurti affirm that 
>the great Teacher was now here and that the "Coming"
>had actually occurred."

Krishnamurti was taken away from his family and convinced by persons 
like Leadbeater and Annie Besant, (we talk about persons with great 
charisma) that he was going to be the vehicle of Maytreya. Do you 
know how easy is to influence a child? Do you know how easy
is to fill up the mind of a child with ideas that may be rooted in 
the mind during quite long time? So what you try to say with the 
above quote, that may be Krishnamurti believed to be what he was 
told to be most part of childhood and adolescence.

>> It seems strange a materialist to admit such powers as the
>> ones mentioned above and to speak about immortality.

>There is a school of thought which has many adherents here which 
>teaches that all the subtle bodies are just "auras" or "fields" 
>around physical body which is their base. They teach that the 
>physical existence is only of importance, and that after
>death these >fields inevitably dissipate. Some also teach that they 
>know the method how to postpone that keeping them in order and 
>reach immortality by obscession of a new body.Though it is a school 
>of magic, it is materialistic nevertheless. In the Soviet Union
>materialism was the official doctrine, but the telepathy was 
sometimes admitted as "brain radio connection".

And what this has to do with Krishnamurti? Was him promoting 
teachings similar the ones you mention above? Was him promoting 
immortality by obsession of a new body? Or you try to tell me that 
even if he spoke about immortality he was a materialist? I am
open to change my opinion at any moment if you have an argument with 
base, which I have seen none until now.

>> "Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God"
>> Mahatma M.

>It's not M, it's K.H., and later he writes:
>"Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable law", while 
>Krishnamurti identifies them, denying both. Noteworthy that one can 
>find in the works by Krishnamurti almost every statement for or 
>against anything. Well, some call it "free-thinking". :)

Thank you for the correction. So what you found in the teachings of
Krishnamurti? Arguments against superstitions created by religions 
and gurus? You emphasize his arguments against any form of 
psychological dependency to a guru or to a group or to an 
organization. Was he wrong? But you do not mention that the
key note of his teachings is the incentive to find the truth through 
a process of self knowledge and try to develop a consciousness of 
non duality, because only through experience one can approach the 
truth. By the way tell me which guru can go within yourself and
transform your nature? Such is an individual task.

"Truth will stand without inspiration from Gods or Spirits, and 
better still will stand in spite of them all; "angels" whispering 
generally but falsehoods and adding to the stock of superstition."
KH - Letter No. 27 Received Simla, Autumn, 1881.

>> His teachings are basic of buddhic nature.

>I also believed so 10 years ago and even wrote about it in theos-l.
>But later when I knew more about his life and read more of his 
>works I changed my mind. Maybe it was so called "atlantean" way 
>when one jumps from astral right to buddhi, passing manas by, but 
>that system >was practiced under dogmatic religious instruction, 
>where free->thinking was almost impossible. After that a
>disciple reached direct >knowledge and could instruct others and 
>lead them. But this implies conception of guru.

My journey was exactly the contrary of yours, I knew about his life 
more than14 years ago and I was anti-Krishnamurtian. But after 
reading his lectures and reflecting in a neutral way about everything
that happened in his life and realizing the great trip Leadbeater 
was in I started admiring not only Krishnamurti teachings but also 
his personality. He did but a great favour for the T.S.when he 
dissolved the order. His decision to dissolve a movement that at the 
time had more than 50.000 followers is not something that everyone 
can do. His only choice was but to break completely with T.S.. And 
his teachings in no form contradict theosophy.

>> But truth independent of personal opinions is that Krishnamurti 
was a great inquirer.

>It is so, but have he found anything?

Was him supposed to find anything?

>Most of his lectures are just series of statements. Yet that
>strategy enabled Krishnamurti to became respectable person unlike 
>HPB & CWL and join the philosophical establishment. No one will say
>that Krishnamurti or Nietzsche or any other "philosopher" of that
>kind were charlatains!

There is no a competition between Blavatsky and Krishnamurti going 
on. Blavatsky had a path Krishnamurti another, and they tried but to 
help and to inspire. If any technique alone and any guru is supposed 
be the path for the truth all India would be enlightened by now, 
they have been practicing techniques for thousands of years now
and following gurus. No one guru, no one teaching, no one religion, 
and no one organization could bring solution for the major problems 
of humanity, could bring peace to the world, could make universal 
brotherhood a practical reality. So if me saying so, and 
Krishnamurti said the same in different words is but a fallacy, 
prove me the contrary please.

Erica Letzerich


> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Erica Letzerich wrote:
> 
> > Krishnamurti teachings helped in a great level the T.S. to
> > be free of the astralism Leadbeater was promoting.
> 
> Astral level is anyway a bit higher than a physical. Most people 
(at 
> least here in Russia, but I guess it is so everywhere) who condemn 
> everything astral are quite unable to raise above physical plane 
> themselves, even to astral, not saying about mental and buddhic. 
So 
> they despise the pudding which they have never tasted.
> If under "astralism" you mean an emotional and devotional 
attitude, 
> it's a merit of Besant, at least it seems so from some of her 
> lectures. And she was the Boss, not Leadbeater or Hodson who 
undertook 
> astral investigations.
> 
> > To use the crisis Krishnamurti had when he lost his brother
> > as a parameter to measure his level of knowledge is but cruel.
> 
> Nevertheless, to test the knowledge by practice is the only 
objective 
> method. Many people preach about God, immortality and things like 
that 
> but are materialists inside, for they afraid of death and strive 
to 
> material posessions. Many christians "believe" in what Bible 
teaches, 
> but do quite the reverse.
> 
> > Life After Death - Krishnamurti
> 
> Is it an older work? In his earlier works and talks he definitely 
> wrote that he really came as a world teacher and wanted to lead 
people 
> to the feet of Lord Buddha. See Hymn to Lord Buddha published in 
> "Theosophist" somewhere circa 1996. This hymn was written in 1927, 
> when Leabeater was out in Australia for more than 10 years.
> 
> Geoffrey Hodson wrote:
> "Krishnamurti himself thereafter changed the Objects of the Order 
of 
> the Star in the East from, in effect, "To prepare for the coming 
of 
> the Lord" to "To serve the World Teacher now that He is in our 
midst." 
> I, myself, more than once heard Krishnamurti affirm that the great 
> Teacher was now here and that the "Coming" had actually occurred."
> 
> > It seems strange a materialist to admit such powers as the
> > ones mentioned above and to speak about immortality.
> 
> There is a school of thought which has many adherents here which 
> teaches that all the subtle bodies are just "auras" or "fields" 
around 
> physical body which is their base. They teach that the physical 
> existence is only of importance, and that after death these fields 
> inevitably dissipate. Some also teach that they know the method 
how to 
> postpone that keeping them in order and reach immortality by 
> obscession of a new body. Though it is a school of magic, it is 
> materialistic nevertheless. In the Soviet Union materialism was 
the 
> official doctrine, but the telepathy was sometimes admitted 
as "brain 
> radio connection".
> 
> > "Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God"
> > Mahatma M.
> 
> It's not M, it's K.H., and later he writes:
> "Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable law", while 
> Krishnamurti identifies them, denying both. Noteworthy that one 
can 
> find in the works by Krishnamurti almost every statement for or 
> against anything. Well, some call it "free-thinking". :)
> 
> > His teachings are basic of buddhic nature
> 
> I also believed so 10 years ago and even wrote about it in theos-l.
> But later when I knew more about his life and read more of his 
works I 
> changed my mind.
> Maybe it was so called "atlantean" way when one jumps from astral 
> right to buddhi, passing manas by, but that system was practiced 
under 
> dogmatic religious instruction, where free-thinking was almost 
> impossible. After that a disciple reached direct knowledge and 
could 
> instruct others and lead them. But this implies conception of guru.
> 
> > But truth independent of personal opinions is that Krishnamurti 
was 
> a great inquirer.
> 
> It is so, but have he found anything?
> He had the full right to dissociate himself from the theosophy and 
> became an independent philosopher, but I never knew (though I may 
be 
> not informed) that he could advocate his position in a 
philosophical 
> dispute with a representative of any other school of thought. All 
> conversations which I have read or seen by video were rather the 
talks 
> with admirers. Nor didn't I seen any his living follower who could 
do 
> so, neither I haven't seen those who succeeded to perform the 
> transformation which he preached. To any agument the followers 
reply: 
> oh, you are reasoning, it's all the mind games, you should change. 
> Sounds much alike to "come around to Hank's way of thinking", and 
so 
> we return to some dogmatic system from which we were trying to 
escape. 
> Most of his lectures are just series of statements. Yet that 
strategy 
> enabled Krishnamurti to became respectable person unlike HPB & CWL 
and 
> join the philosophical establishment. No one will say that 
> Krishnamurti or Nietzsche or any other "philosopher" of that kind 
were 
> charlatains!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erica Letzerich .'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]