Theos-Talk Archives (February 2005 Message tt00133)

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "M. Sufilight" 
<global-theosophy@s...> wrote:


> Was HPB wrong in her clearly very critical remarks about dead-letter
> teachings, the dogamtic christian churches and other religious kinds 
of
> dogmatism, various spiritualistic sorceries and phallisism etc. etc. 
???
> Was it wrong to tell the wrong-doers about what they did ???
> If so, I would like a clear answer on this.

Maybe she was essentially right, but the form in which she presented
her critics isn't satisfactory.
Our christian opponents say: you have declared the brotherhood 
without
distinction of creed and comparative study of religions, but it's all
hypocrisy, for you are preaching your own fixed doctrine and are 
definitely
hostile to our religion.


> Was HPB wrong when she said the following ??? (If so, I would like a 
clear
answer on this.) :

[quotation from Occultism Versus The Occult Arts skipped]

I don't know whether she was RIGHT or WRONG, but I agree with her in
many points. Noteworthy that Leadbeater whose views are the topic of
the current discussion was completely agree with her and even quoted
that very article and her other articles about occult path.

As for my personal views, I cannot say that I agree with both of them
completely because I don't believe much in ethics, morals and other 
things
like that.

> So all of the later theosophical leaders and authors followed
> HPB's advice and did not put aside the esoteric doctrine of
> Atma-Vidya? Or was phallic thought-patterns, - dead-letter
> teachings and christian dogmatism just so very very important,
> that HPB's teachings should be PUT ASIDE?

It is a false logic, because it is based on many suppositions which
should be proved first. Who of later theosophical authors taught
the phallic thought-patterns and christian dogmatism?

> Would it be fair to judge the various wellknown theosophists
> teachings and activities on the spiritual impact they have
> created upon other people? I think so. We shall know them on
> their fruits.

Writings of Leadbeater and Bailey surely had more spiritual impact
upon other people than those by Cleather and Mead. I know a man
who interested only in magic & ESP and bought "Treatise on white 
magic"
by Bailey only because it had "magic" on the cover. There he found
references to Secret Doctrine and now he is a very serious student
of HPB works. He has also created a theosophical group in their
small mineworkers' town.

As for the followers of Alice Bailey, I don't agree with them in some
philosophical points, because many of them believe in God and neglect
the earlier teachings given in Lamrim Chenmo and Secret Doctrine, but
off all schools which I know they are most seriously working on their
own character and try really to live according the teaching, unlike
some "pure" theosophists which are just studying theory all their 
life.

> Black Magic in Science
> "Result on Karmic lines: every Hypnotist, every man of Science,
...
> Such is the consequence of public "Hypnotic" experiments which
> thus lead to, and virtually are, BLACK MAGIC."

I don't know why are you quote this, for Leadbeater was of
exactly same opinion.

"The dangers of mediumship and hypnotism could hardly be better
expressed than in this solemn warning:
Let no one ever resign the sovereignty of himself, his mind or
body, into the hands of another, be he priest or layman. For a
man' s freedom is his divine prerogative, and he who yields it to
another is more abject than the lowest slave.
...
There are many ways by which the inner sight may be opened, and
most of them are full of danger, and decidedly to be avoided. It
may be done by the use of certain drugs, by self-hypnotisation,
or by mesmerism; but all these methods may bring with them evil
results which far outweigh the gain." (Hidden side of things)

> As HPB said in the above: " ten to one the student would blossom
> into a very decent kind of sorcerer, and tumble down headlong
> into black magic". And that has never happened in all of the
> various theosophical groups history since 1875 ???

Leadbeater says that it DID happened.

"In the early days of this Society, while Madame Blavatsky was
still alive, we had a member who was in many ways a man of
tremendous power. If he had chosen to become a black magician
he would have been a very effective specimen. Sometimes he was
slightly unscrupulous; he had a passion for knowledge; he would
have done almost anything— even something a little shady— to
gain further information. He was a doctor of medicine, and in
attending upon one of our members he discovered her to be a
clairvoyant of rather rare powers in certain ways. Finding this,
when she was convalescent he asked her to join him in certain
experiments. He said to her quite openly on the physical plane:
`You have a very wonderful power; if you will allow me to
mesmerize you, to put you into a trance, I am sure that you can
attain heights which I myself can never touch, and in that way we
should gain much knowledge which at present is out of our reach.'
The lady refused— I think quite rightly; for such domination is
a most dangerous thing, and should certainly not be undertaken
except under exceptional conditions and with elaborate safeguards.

At any rate, she refused absolutely. The doctor was very much
dissatisfied and declined to take `No' for an answer; but for the
time he went his way. That same night he materialized in her
bedroom and began to attempt mesmeric passes. Not unnaturally she
was intensely angry; she felt a great sense of flaming outrage
that he should dare to intrude upon her, that he should try to
force upon her what she had definitely and after due consideration
declined; and she set herself to fight against his influence with
all her strength. But she quickly realized that her mental power
was nothing as compared to his; that her will was being slowly
but surely overborne: so, knowing that she was fighting a losing
battle, she called upon her Master (the Master Kuthumi) for help.

The result was not only instantaneous, but it astonished her
beyond words. Remember that she was filled with the most violent
and passionate sense of outrage. In a flash, in a moment, as she
made the call, she saw the doctor disappearing in the far
distance. That was perhaps not quite so wonderful; but what
struck her, what she never forgot, was that in one moment her
whole feeling was absolutely changed. The anger was gone, the
sense of outrage was gone, and all that she felt towards the
disappearing doctor was profound regret that a man who had such
wonderful powers should misuse them in that way."
(The Masters And The Path)

> Now if the huge majority neo-theosophical defenders still wants
> to raise their weapons against the Truth

Who knows the truth?